Q: am modeling a fictitious rural (midwestern) area using CNW motive power.....was wondering what type(s) of block signalling system(s) were used.......I have a few books on CNW history, but can't seem to find any photos with any type of block signalling (with the exception of 1 photo using semaphores)....I know in the urban passenger area there was the overhead bridge type, but what was used in the non-urban setting? The years I am modelling cover from the late 1950's to early 1980's.......
Patrick
A: The simple answer was that, assuming that there were any at all, is that they used semaphores in the more rural areas.
The signals on the C&NW were not all of one type and the main line out of Chicago going west had no visible signals at all (ATC), and the line going north had signals, but train control. (ATS) The overhead signal bridges that you refer to, often had special purposes.
Rural areas often went by train order, not signals.
Joe
Q: In my years working for the CNW there was a caboose assigned to the burro crane at Butler, Wisconsin. It was a wooden bay window caboose. I often thought it would make a great model but never got a picture of it. Can't find it in any of my books. It was different from any other caboose we had at the time. It was painted red, and had passenger style trucks under it.
It was around during the late sixties and early to mid seventies as I recall. Does the CNWHS have anything on this waycar? D Was it a yard transfer Caboose? As I recall it was shorter than our road cabooses. Any help would be appreciated.
Dan
A:
Q: I am looking for information on a Chicago & North Western line, which is currently in use as the Great Western Trail of the Illinois Prairie Path. The track played a large part in my life as a kid and I spent countless hours playing on and near the right of way. There wasn't much danger of being hit because the trains traveled the old single track slowly and infrequently and could be seen approaching from miles away. I would like to know if someone could direct me to information regarding this line, such as its history, purpose, photos, and/or equipment used on it. Specifically, I would like to know what model engine the company would have used along this line in the 1970's.
Max
A: The Great Western Trail, formerly the CGW line in Illinois.
The CGW lasted until 1968 when the C&NW took it over. The CGW ran F units on the line, as well as GP 30's and SD40's. Then the C&NW continued to run those units for a short time and then ran various units of its own. The C&NW had no use for the line and wanted it converted to cash (abandoned and sold) as soon as possible. The segment from Chicago to St. Charles (approx.) lasted somewhat longer to serve a few remaining industries, but it was doomed.
It is not very likely that somebody has photos taken while a train was passing your house. Photos were mostly taken in the center of towns or at special places. We have a couple of back issues of our magazines that have some CGW photos, so you might check our back-issues on our web site at cnwhs.org.
Joe
Q: We're at the point on restoring #301 that paint and lettering info is needed. Anything relating to RPO paint schemes and colors (vintage 1884-1910) would be greatly appreciated. We have found many spots with yellow paint as the earliest layer, but have had very limited (NONE) success for trim and lettering locations and colors. We now have all four doors reopened and new/rehabbed windows in six of the eight openings.
Colfax RR Museum
A: This is very difficult for us because we have only a limited number of drawings of passenger cars in that era, either C&NW or CStPM&O.
The colors in those days were yellow and green, but I am not sure about the lettering. Another car in another series might have the correct colors. The yellow and green remained standard until about 1929. And then the colors reappeared on the 400's about 10 years later.
Joe
Q: Can you tell me what the "DF loaders" are/were?
Bob
A: DF stands for Damage Free, and the cars so-marked were given special equipment. The CGW definitely had some and I think the C&NW did also. They are long-gone.
Joe
Q: I am currently painting an A B A set of Alco FA’s. My questions are:
1. Is the back ends green or yellow? (cannot find any pictures showing me)
2 On the B unit is Chicago Northwestern label across the side, like the A unit?
Jack
A: Both in the demo colors and the yellow repaint the ends were green
In the B unit demo colors, CHICAGO AND was painted in the small yellow stripe tothe left of the side door, and NORTH WESTERN to the right . On the A unit the letters C AND N W was to the left of the door.
In the yellow repaint CHICAGO AND NORTH was in black to the left of the door and WESTERN to the right of the door on both the A and B unit.
LK
Q: I thought your members and visitors to your site would find this new database with photos and text of interest. It's an effort to document online freight customers of the C&NW/UP Northwest Line both past and present. Help is needed to fill in the many blanks.
http://sites.google.com/site/cnwnorthwestline/
What's left of the locally switched industries is fading rapidly along the NW Line. It appears that the TrueValue paint factory in Cary is no longer rail served judging by the rust on its spur.
Tom
A: Tom,
I enjoyed reading you list of industries on the NW Line. A lot of work went into that. Did you use that book of industiries from the 1950's?
Joe
Q: Why was the Elroy-Sparta line abandoned-because it tied in with the Winona & St. Peter and the traffic was too low after the bridge was taken out?
A: It was taken out because the C&NW was agressively abandoning all trackage except for heavy duty main line trackage. They figured that the Milwaukee-Wyeville-Winona 1911 route was desireable. Any route with tunnels is immediately suspect.
Joe
Q: Where did the CNW use its Baldwin Babyface passenger engine (the one with the baggage compartment where the rear diesel engine would have been? Was it on the Milwaukee-Oshkosh-Green Bay line?
A: Yes, it was used in Wisconsin for a while, but I can't remember the exact route. My late friend went up there to help solve mechanical problems. However, it probably ran more route miles after it was assigned to the Chicago - Freeport, IL run.
Joe
Q: What was the heaviest steam power used through Elroy-Sparta and Rochester (surely not the Northerns, but maybe the Berkshires)?
A: The Class J freight locomotives and the Class E Pacifics on the passenger. I am doing this from memory without a chart in front of me. None of the heavy locomotives ever went in the western half of Wisconsin (Wyeville was the extreme limit.).
The CStPM&O 600 Class heavy Pacifics went into Elroy and south of there, but not down the Sparta line. As Pacifics went, they were monsters, but they did not go to Sparta. (The Berkshires were assigned only to the Southern Illinois Divsion and never went anywhere else in regular service.)
Joe
Q: Why were the CNW bridge and waterfront station at Winona torn down? Was it because of the collapse of the CNW tunnel at Tunnel City?
A: Passenger stations were obsolete even before passenger service disappeared. Just a liability. The tunnel collapse just meant that the C&NW detoured (permanently) over the Milwaukee for a distance.
Joe
Q: My friend noticed that there are stone bridges along the Winona & St. Peter and the Elroy-Sparta route (another reason he thinks the two lines were originally constructed to be one) and asked if the traffic was heavy enough along that route to warrant stone construction. (My thought is that the line would have been built early enough for the engineers to have clung to the same original bridge-building dogma that the B&O engineers held 30-40 years earlier. Your opinion?)
A: The C&NW generally used Standard Bridge designs. We have plans for most of the timber-Standard-designs. But Stone bridges probably had to be modified for the site in some cases. The Winona & St. Peter was essentially independent when it was constructed, but soon came under C&NW influence. For a better answer, he needs order the CD version of our Winter 1986 magazine off our cnwhs.org site. The C&NW would have prefered to use cheaper timber bridges, but possible washouts, etc. made stone necessary some times. Timber bridges would have held the trains of almost any era.
Joe
Q: The Elroy-Sparta Rail Trail: Was that part of the line that crossed over at Winona and went to Rochester and points west (the old Winona and St. Peter route)?
A: Yes, the line went to Winona, which was west of Sparta. When the C&NW built the bypass line from Milwaukee, to Wyeville, to Sparta in 1911, the Sparta line that you mention became immediately obsolete. But railroad are slow to change, so passenger and freight trains used it for decades later.
Joe
Q: I have a watch fob that has the Chicago Northwestern logo, but says "employee owned" rather than the normal "Chicago System." Any idea on its history and date? I know the railroad was sold to the employees in 1972.
William
A: We don't have any listing of watches. It may or may not have been company issued. The C&NW Company Store at its headquarters did order and sell things like this. On the last couple of days of the railroad's existence in 1995, the employees cleaned out the store.
The Employee Owned period lasted from 1972 to 1982.
Joe
Q: Reading the Dan Patch famous pacer harness horse story I see his owner had leased 2 train cars from your line.
M. W. Savage had leased a baggage car and turned it into the horse own private car. And the second one was for M. W. Savage family to travel around in. Do you have any information on this man during this time period of 1902 or 1903 until his death in July of 1916?
Diane
A: We do not have information on this. I think there are articles on Mr. Savage and Dan Patch in American Heritage magazine?
Joe
Q: Information wanted on the concrete Dispatcher's Phone boxes that were along the Mainlines of the CGW?
Fred
A:
Q: I am trying to determine a good source for HO Scale decals to letter several Walthers/Rivarossi 60' "mainline" coaches, combines, and baggage cars. I am modeling the late-40s/early-50s time period.
I recently ordered several Champ PH-21D C&NW Passenger Car Standard Dulux Gold Lettering sets...but they do not seem to match either the font or the bright yellow color that I've seen in photos and on the lettered Rivarossi cars.
Could you please tell me a source of decals to letter a late-1940s CNW 60' coach?
Andy
A:
Q: I am interested in occasional passenger travel on the NorthWestern between Omaha and Valentine in north-central Nebraska. I have been unable to find passenger train schedules. The years I'm interested in are 1900 into the 1940s.
Jon
A: We have those schedules, but we don't have every year in the period you mention. You probably want sample schedules. We can copy them for a small fee.
Joe
Q: I am planning on having either an A-B-A F3 or A-B-A F-7 set painted in C&NW colors. The locomotives would be painted to replicate engines of the 1950's so I was considering engine number #4056 for the F-3 or #4067 for the F-7.
My question is what shade of yellow would be most authentic?
Larry
A: The yellow back in the 1950's was the same as used on the "400" passenger cars. I suppose that if you look at one of the Penske rental trucks that are running around the streets today, you would be close, but also just a bit too orange.
Joe
Here are the paint codes I have recorded for Traditional Yellow. I also have codes for Original Yellow, “Zito” Yellow, and Green if you need them. Many of the old DuPont paints are discontinued due to lead content but some vendors may be able to convert the code to a current paint. I have not attempted to have any of these mixed up. Joe is right when he says modern paint looks different. The paint base and dried surfaces are different so the color and reflectance have changed over time. But you can get close.
C&NW Traditional Yellow Imron 826-Y-68445
C&NW Traditional Yellow Imron HPC 333-68445
C&NW Traditional Yellow Imron HPC 4W8-40P
It is my understanding that C&NW and Penske used the same yellow. So if you can find a current Penske yellow (as used on their trucks) you should have a match for C&NW.
Erich
Q: Several days ago I had an opportunity to walk across a "Cowboy Trail" bridge on the CNW Cowboy Line. The bridge is located several miles east of Valentine, NE crossing the Niobrara River. The only information I have found is that it is 148 ft high, 1/4 mile long and built in 1928. I am curious as to how they built this structure and how long it took to build. There appears to be an older grade just to to north of this site, why was its use discontinued? This is an awesome bridge that I would like to learn more about.
Darrel
A: Bridges are not well documented, And this was apparently build after the Valuation survey of bridges around 1920.
When the "Cowboy Line was abandoned all the bridges became surplus. The abandonment of the line was hastened by very heavy flash flooding, which wiped out many of the smaller bridges.
Joe
Q: I am interested in Chicago during the period 1856-1871.
I would like information on where (what street) the C&NW passenger station in Chicago was located in the year 1867.
Greg
A: The answer is much more complicated than you might think, as the C&NW absorbed other railroads, which had their own depots.
Joe
Q: in a German internet forum a fine photo of Atlantic # 394 has been posted:
http://www.drehscheibe-foren.de/foren/read.php?17,4309861
Unfortunately the Alco construction number shown there is not correct. Could you please find out the correct number?
Helmut
A: According to our diagram book, the builder's number was: 45706.
The date built was December 1904. The tender number was 7085.
Joe
Q: Did the C&NW Historical Society ever run a magazine special covering the origin and history through near-present on the various trackage in and around Chicago?
Dave
A: We put out two large books: Lines North of Mayfair and Lines North of Mayfair: Maps.
These are interesting. The bad news is that these are very expensive. That is because they are oversized and are printed in very small quantities. But they have much of what you want for that area. Check our store on this web site.
Joe
Q: In the 1940's The Chicago and Northwestern Railroad sponsored a morning program [maybe 6 - 8:00] hosted by ?
Len
A: The radio show you refer to was "The 400 Hour" with Norman Ross. When he died, the show was taken over briefly by his son, Norman Ross Jr. who died within the last year.
We had an article in Vol. 26, No. 4, Fall 1999, of our magazines about Norman Ross.
Joe
Q: I am interested in security Chicago On the C&NW in 1943.I am hoping to get some reasonably accurate information about rail yard security at the Chicago roundhouse and freight barn during World War 2. My uncle worked for CN&W his entire life, and would be a wonderful resource for this, but he passed many years ago.
If anyone in your organization can answer a few very basic questions on yard security during that period I would greatly appreciate it.
Scott
A: This is a topic that never made it in to print....for security reasons.
It is my understanding that the railroad police were the main secutity people, but that there were National Guardsmen at key points and bridges. But this is not confirmed. The people who would likely know are not with us any more. Bridges were more at risk than round houses and freight houses. There would be no long-term war effect if a freight house were destroyed.
Joe
Q: I recently purchased the book on the Air Line. Do you have any maps showing an overview of C&NW's Milwaukee operations? The book is great but lacks a regional map; it is hard to identify the locations of the Milwaukee located operations.
Robert
A: We do have a fairly good one, but we would need $4.75 to fold it and mail it. (extra copies from the C&NW)
It is not in the store, and we only have a few, If you are interested contact us through the web site address.
We have never digitized that map, and that would cost much more because we would have to send it out.
Joe
Q: I am building an HO scale NW-2 in CNW paint circa 1949, and I'm having a little trouble tracking down the correct paint scheme. Can you tell me what would be appropriate, and perhaps point me to a photo?
Steve
A: We have been unable to find a colored photo dated 1949. The CNW only had 2 NW2's and they were attached to calf units in the beginning.
Q: Is there a picture or article available about the Rutland, Iowa depot on the Sioux Rapidds Subdivision out of Eagle Grove, Iowa?
John
A:
Q: When did the C&NW ceased to exist?
When was the C&NW green and yellow "livery" was phased out?
Chip
A: the final year for the C&NW was 1995.
Green and Yellow lasted until the end, though in many different variations, etc., over the years.
The Union Pacific painted one brand-new locomotive in C&NW colors in its Heritage Program to recognize predecessor railroads.
Joe
Q: I am repainting an old Hobbytown HO E7 diesel to CNW colors (1950 scheme). Are the Floquil CNW green and CNW yellow good matches for this?
Richard
A: a. C&NW Dark Green is "Dupont Centari acrylic enamel Code 1881, direct cross from same Dulux code number "400" streamlined passenger cars and engines and numerous other diesel engines and passenger cars, 1939 on"
b. C&NW Yellow: "Dupont Dulux alkyd enamel Codes 1226 and 51596. "400" streamlined passenger cars and engines and numerous other diesel engines and pass cars 1939 through late 70's and early 80's."
I feel the closest non-mix paint is Floquil C&NW Yellow and Green. Depending on the lighting of the layout the colors will vary some but if everything is painted the same then you can see no difference. Note a picture of units at Proviso for example, no two units alike due to sun, and age of paint.
Passenger cars: Original cars were delivered with green roofs which quickly changed to black due to sun and dirt. Car washers only extended to top of letter board so cars looked good but roofs turned black. The 1958 and 1959 P-S rebuilds were painted with black roofs.
Now for color schemes on the E7's. You must realize that more than one scheme was in service at one time depending on damage repairs and major overhauls and the need to repaint. I have gone through all my B/W's and slides. The following dates are the earliest dates that I have on my pictures.
A. As delivered: earliest picture May 1946
1. Black separation stripe between Yellow and Green.
2. Black stripe on center belt rail extending just beyond the sand fill with a small three color heard at end.
3. Silver lettering out lined in black. Loco numbers 8 inches
4. Bottom side belt rail painted green
5. Anti-climber Aluminum with Black buffer.
6. Green pilot.
7. Pullman Green trucks side frames .
8. Fuel tank skirt painted Green
9. Black fuel tank.
B. First repaint: first picture 2-52.
Every thing the same as delivered except lettering changed to black.
C. Second repaint: first picture 3-59
1. lettering remains black but loco number increased to 10 inches.
2. Black center belt rail and small herald removed.
3. Skirts removed.
4. Still has long winged nose herald
Again you must remember these changes over lapped depending on the situation . Examples: A 1959 shot of 5009-B has smaller 8 inch loco number and black center belt rail stops at cab door. Indicates nose damage repaint. A 2-57 shot of 5011B black stripe ends at sand fill and 10 inch numbers ahead of door, with very small three color heard on nose. Probably due to nose damage and put into service as soon as possible.
D. Third version : picture 1959
1. Mid stripe and herald removed. Loco number still eight inches.
2. Shorter wing nose herald as used on F units.
E. Forth and final version : earliest picture 3-64
1. Black separation stripe between yellow and green removed.
2. Winged herald replaced with ball and bar three color decal.
Lloyd
Q: My question is when did the 400 make the last stop at the Escanaba Depot?
Don
A:
Q: When was the Lander Line abandoned? Did the CB&Q interchange with the CNW at Shoshoni when they completed the line or did they build thier own line into Casper?
RJ
A:
Q: Has the CNWHS done any articles on Rockford depots? These two depots would have been only about a mile apart.
The depot I remember was on South Main Street west of the Rock River and only a couple of blocks north of the IC depot. It was elevated as the picture shows, with steps leading down to Main Street. The 7th Street station would have been east of the Rock River.
Bob
A: Yes, there were two depots, both designed by C.S. Frost, if my memory is correct. The main one was elevated, as your note suggests.
Joe
Q: What are the correct coloring for the Superior WI Depot that sat across the tracks from the SOO Depot in the 1950s.
What color was the brick/stone?
What color was the trim?
What color was the roof/shingles?
A:
Q: What date was the old C&NW Lake Street tower was put in service?
A: December 1909 is when the plans were dated for the Clinton St./Lake St. tower.
June 4, 1911 is the date the Terminal officially opened. So that is the date that scheduled train service began. No doubt the tower was controlling switches for the work trains before that.
Joe
Q: How I can find out the industries served by the CNW on the Alco Line? Is there a business directory available online, printed, etc?
Scott
A: We do not have any version that is accessible, unfortunately.
Ted Schnepf (Rails Unlimited) sells a reprint.
Joe
Q: what type of maps are in the book called C&NW lines north of Mayfair?
Was there a article ever written on the navy pier line in chicago?
Brian
A: The maps in the Lines North of Mayfair are official C&NW maps, basically of two types: "Station Maps"
which are local maps of various sorts and Valuation Maps which were required by the government. They vary in quality, but are fairly extensive. Nobody else has such maps.
** Nobody has done any book or article on the Navy Pier line. It is a fairly complex topic.
Joe
Q: The C&NW Skokie Sub Line had connections to The Milwaukee District North Line Amtrak and Soo Line Tracks by The Admiral south of Mayfair Tower, and Went By The Sears Roebuck Company Building, and Crossed The Milwaukee District West Line/ North Central Service CP Rail Tracks and had Spur Tracks connecting to that Line Too From There The Skokie Sub Line Went to 40th Street Yard a few more miles furthur southbound Which had Connections to The Elburn Sub Line Too !Where C&NW 40 Street Yard used to be, what is left?
Jim
A: The old 40th St. Yard, the yard part is all gone, replaced with industrial or City of Chicago buildings. However the Metra engine terminal is right where the C&NW terminal was....using the same tracks and building.
Joe
Q: I wondered if your group has a listing of the named trains of the C&NW, I'm looking for routes and dates of operation, and any material you have would be greatly appreciated.
David
A: we do not have a list of name passenger trains, Ironically, we do have a list of named freight trains.
Joe
Q: Why the upper headlight on C&NW F units and (some?) E units was either blank or had the locomotive bell mounted on it?
Chuck
A: We have no official pronouncement on the headlight question, but some things are certain.
All of these locomotives were made with two functioniing headlights, one of which was an oscillating Mars light.
The upper one was removed when the C&NW did a complete reversal and decided that Mars lights were costly and ineffective. They were into the "less is better" phase at the time. Perhaps they thought that the bell in the nose was more effective in transmitting sound, though some units never got the bell in the nose.
Don't forget that they also eliminated the number boards on many of the units and just painted the number on. this is also consistant with the "Cheap and Nothing Wasted" theme.
Q: I have 3 playing cards from a card deck that show a young blonde woman
waving from a dock on a lake to a CNW train. It appears to be from the
1940s. There are pine trees on the shore behind the train, and a canoe is paddling toward the dock with the young woman on it. She is sitting on a white towel with red and blue side stripes. She is attired in a yellow two-piece bathing suit. What can I learn about these playing cards?
Georgia
A: I remember the scene. It was also used on C&NW menu covers in the dining cars. The location is partly imaginary, but it is probably supposed to depict the line in southern Wisconsin.
Those cards were given to passengers for free in the first-class lounge cars, and they were for sale in some of the depots. There were other scenes that were made in other years.
Joe
Q: Will the society ever have HO models of the streamlined 400 coaches and parlor cars for our 400 trains? All we have now are brass sides with body kits, and it would be nice to be able to operate a few ready-to-run cars.
Ron
A: As you probably know, there are not just brass car sides but also complete brass models. They have been imported by Railway Classics and also years ago by a different company (NJ Custom Brass?
There is another option for the coach and observation. Con-Cor's lightweight cars are based on the C&NW 400 cars, although they are shortened. You would have to splice together to car bodies to get the full length.
Considering the two runs of brass models and availability of the Con-Cor cars, I doubt there will ever be a full plastic 400 produced. The market just isn't there to cover the cost of the tooling.
Erich
Q: When the CSt.P&FdL became the C&NWRR in 1859 how was the name properly rendered: in particular was it North-Western, North West ern or Northwestern?
If it was ever legally "Northwestern", when did it become North- Western [that is two separate words with hypen, rather than a single word] (this is used in a 1900 Official Guide that I happen to have) ?
When did it thereafter become North Western [that is without hyphen] (this is used in a 1916 Official Guide - and all later issues - that I have)?
When did it change from Railroad to Railway?
Richard
A: I can tell you a couple of things: Inventive spellings were more common in the 1800's, so sometimes it is hard to tell what was/is official.
The words "North Western" were usually separated.
The word "Railway" was probably used more than once.
Joe
Q: From an old newspaper article, it appears the C &NW railroad partially financed the rebuilding/replacing of the original wooden bridge that spanned Proviso Rail Yards via Mannheim Road, Bellwood, Illinois in 1952-1953. I am looking for photos of that bridge and the station located under it. Photos of the steam locomotives (passenger trains) that serviced that route would be great too.
David
A:
Q: I looking for any clear photos of the Duluth Minnesota C&NW 5th. street Depot. That is to say, photos that show the trackside details of the structure; there is always a Budd Car, Loco or something else at the platform to obscure the building itself.
Scott
A:
Q: Do you have any information on The Rail originally coming into Cartwright, WI (now New Auburn, WI)? around 1880
Donna
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Q: I inherited a pocket watch from a great uncle who worked for the CNW out of South Pekin from 1915-1955 as an engineer. I'm trying to find some history on this branch of the CNW.
Bill
A: For a while the line was called the Southern Illinois Division of the C&NW. Later it became a subdivision of the Galena Division. It had lots of coal trains and some general freight, but very little passenger traffic.
Many trains went beyond Benld to Madison, IL over the Litchfield & Madison......which the C&NW purchased in 1957. Madison, IL was on the doorstep of St. Louis.
South Pekin was the Division headquarters for a while and the only major terminal on the line.
Joe
Q: There was an episode of the above show this week that featured the C&NW. In it I saw a switcher no. 2087. Looking at the archives on your website I guess it to be a M-1 0-6-0. Is there any info on that particular engine or type of engine, possibly mfr and has it been modeled?
Phil
A: It was indeed an M-1, built in August of 1917. The builder was Paterson, which is unusual, and probably the favored Alco-Schenectady was filled up with orders at that time. The retirement date is not here at home.
Joe
Q: I see the Weber line in the Chicago area mentioned in the magazine a fair amount but have never seen anything that indicates where the name originated.
Craig
A: The Weber line in Evanston was named after Barney Weber, and industrialist, who had an industry with a branch off the Weber line. The same would apply to the nearby Weber yard of the C&NW.
We have books on the general subject of those lines, but I am not recommending the books, except for very serious research .
Joe
Q: I am part of the Kasota historical society, and we are working on how the railroad helped build Kasota. We were wondering if you have any information or pictures of the turntable outside of Kasota.
Fred
A: It just occurred to me that the Mankato roundhouse and turntable might have been in the Kasota town limits.
Is that so?
Joe
Q: I have found a letter that has a postmark that I think reads "CHI & ALCO" "TR22". Can you tell me what it means and where the train ran?
Jeff
A: It is apparently an RPO postmark (Railway Post Office), which means that the postal car on the train worked on the mail and applied the cancellation stamp. I am not an expert on these postmarks, but my guess is that there might be a typo in the mark. My guess is that it translates to: Chicago & Alton (railroad) Train # 22. Most of their trains ran from Chicago to Alton, IL and then to St. Louis.
Joe
Q: I am looking for information about the CNW passenger service between Chicago to Hurley Wisconsin.
jack
A: There was indeed passenger service from Chicago to Ashland, stopping at at Hurley. It goes way back to the beginning of the line up there. As late as the 1960's there was a modern diesel train that went there: the "Flambeau 400". In fact I rode it myself as far as Woodruff.
One strange fact is that before/after stopping at Hurley the train would make a side trip into Ironwood, sometimes backing in (or backing out, depending). Then it would continue to Ashland or to Chicago.
The trains would stop in Green Bay and remove or add cars, as there were fewer passengers going to the North Woods....and also change crews The trains would stop longer at Antigo to change crews again.
Joe
Q: There was an episode of Trains and Locomotives on RFD TV this week that featured the C&NW. In it I saw a switcher no. 2087. Looking at the archives on your website I guess it to be a M-1 0-6-0. Is there any info on that particular engine or type of engine, possibly mfr and has it been modeled?
Phil
A: It was indeed an M-1, built in August of 1917. The builder was Paterson, which is unusual, and probably the favored Alco-Schenectady was filled up with orders at that time.
Joe
When it comes to 0-6-0 switchers, you have two choices, plus one
excellent plastic model. Unfortunately there is no model of the Class M-1
available. If one is ever produced, a manufacturer will have many
variations to choose from.
United/PFM "Omaha" 0-6-0 #23. Nearly 2000 of these were produced from 1963
through 1973 and they are one of the most common brass switchers found at
the brass dealers today. This model is a very good representation of the
CStPM&O Class F-10 #23 with a slant back tender. The Omaha had only one
more F-10 0-6-0 switcher, #22, but it had a different tender style. It
would be fun to kitbash a tender for #22 to replicate the entire F-10
roster.
Trains, Inc. Class M-2 0-6-0. 400 of these models were produced in 1967 and
they are somewhat hard to find but they appear from time to time. Like the
United model, this locomotive has an open frame motor and no backhead
detail. Both can be converted to can motors by an experienced modeler.
Life-Like/Proto 2000 USRA 0-6-0. Production quantities are not available,
but they have produced at least five road numbers. These locomotives are a
good match for the C&NW Class M-3 0-6-0.
#30214 - road number 2603
#30215 - road number 2624
#31767 - road number 2608 (with sound & DCC)
#31768 - road number 2614 (with sound & DCC)
#31769 - road number 2618
Erich
Q: Any idea when the last landline Morse circuit was used/removed from the CNW? I seem to remember around 1980, the station agents for the CNW and Soo Line in Shawano would speak of their abilities with Morse.
Kent
A:
Q: DO YOU HAVE A LIST OF BOOKS THAT HAVE INFO ON DIFFERENT YARDS FROM YEARS PAST OF THE C&NW?
DICK
A: We do not have information or a book on yards, Track profiles will supply some information and we do have some profiles. we would need the name of the town you are interesed in and we will see if we have a profile.
Ron
Q: I’m doing some research on old rail depots or stations that had small theatres or entertainment within. There’s an old NYT clip that says back in 1910 a vaudeville theatre was planned for Penn Station. Any information on theatres in operating stations or depots in the Chicago area?
Lori
A: None of the depots/stations on the C&NW had theaters, per se.
The old C&NW Terminal in Chicago had Christmas events in season. Usually, the choir of C&NW staff volunteers sang carols, at times, for the passengers waiting in, entering or leaving the main waiting room, which had a large vaulted ceiling.
My guess is that choirs and musical groups did perform on a periodic basis in the waiting room of larger Terminals, but I am not remembering this specifically. Around 1900 or so the C&NW and other railroads had bands, made up of volunteers, but I don't know where they performed.
Joe
Q: What color was typically found on the interior of a C&NW caboose? (Specifically, a bay-window caboose in the red scheme, such as #11111 on page 39 of the Morning Sun book Chicago & North Western Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment Volume 1 by Kinkaid.)
A: Several have said gray. We would like to have someone confirm this.
Q: While I found that the cover photo of the 2009 calendar to be great, having ridden behind the early geeps pulling standard coaches, and also rode behind steam and mixed bilevels/standard coaches in my younger days including pulled by steam. You didn't mention the standard coach at the rear of the train in the caption, and noting that those would be all St. Louis cars in the 1-16 series (look at the windows). Most concerning, that station has to be Bellwood rather than Berkeley, since the IHB at the eastern end of the Proviso Yard is clearly visible in the photo. Am I right? -- Lyle
A: You are right since the photo (as I remember it) was taken from a bridge or some elevation, not found at Berkeley.
Joe
Q: I teach South Dakota History in eastern South Dakota.. One aspect that had a great influence on our state and our specific area was the railroad boom in the late 1800's. We study Marvin Hughitt and his importance to the Chicago & North Western Railroad Company. There is much information about him, but we have never been able to locate a
photograph.
Rusty
A: We have a good formal photograph of him.
I understand that Marvin Hughitt was like a "God-King" in SD, and he and his company did develop the towns and they encouraged settlers and homesteaders.
Joe
Q: I am trying to find a complete deatiled diagram of the CNW terminal trackage in Chicago. I am considering building a station modeled after this on my layout.
Evan
A: I assume that you mean the Passenger Terminal area.
The scope of this may be rather large, and could involve some expense. We don't have a book or packet on this topic.
If you are trying to build the Terminal building itself, we have a CD set on our site, which has the actual plans. ( cnwhs.org ) CPT = Chicago Passenger Terminal.
Joe
Q: I am researching lettering that was used on bilevel commuter coaches trying to identify the font.
Craig
A: This is a bit more complicated than you probably thought. The font is probably
Railroad Roman, but the C&NW did not use such terminology. They used a drawing number for the drawing of the lettering/size of that type. They also used a drawing number for the whole car's side elevation - in this case: N-54400
Joe
Q: I would like to know the correct color of red on the cgw GP30's. I have not found a real good red in modeling these units,
caboose red seems to be the closest
Denny
A: Many have asked this question, and no one answer has came to light. We do not have the official CGW color charts. I like signal red or SP scarlet. As you can see this is my eye matching photos I have. I'm sorry I couldn't be more helpful.
Ron
Q: I'm looking for some information regarding CNW property (older maps, plans or other documents). Is there any way you can help me
Pawel
A: We have many of the govenment-mandated Valuation maps friom about 1917. We also have the digital versions on CD.
We have most of the Chicago area, but we are missing some of the lines from downtown to West Chicago. For some of those missing areas we have alternative maps.
I would have to know the specific area/location.
Joe
Q: I would like to know the correct color of red on the cgw GP30's. I have not found a real good red in modeling these units, cboose red seems to be the closest,
Denny
A: You have asked the $64 question, many have asked, and no one answer has came to light.
We do not have the official CGW color charts.
I like signal red or SP scarlet.
Ron
Q: I have a “Brakeman’s Lantern”. The glass has C & NW engraved in the glass.
The lantern appears to be old because of the wick and fuel it uses. The metal is rusted over and I would like to clean it. To help keep the original finish, any ideas on what to clean the metal with?
Suellen
A: There are two groups that can help you with the proper way to clean and restore the lantern. Some cleaners will continue to eat at the metal even after being washed off, so I suggest asking an expert before starting.
Railroadiana Online:
http://www.railroadiana.org/
Railroadiana Lantern Restoration Page:
http://www.railroadiana.org/lanterns/pgLanterns_Restoration.php
Key Lock & Lantern:
http://klnl.org/
Erich
Q: I am detailing a model of CNW RSD5 #1667, which was used in South Dakota.
The photos I have suggest it was repainted in 1979 or 1980, shortly before retirement.
What is unclear is whether the yellow was Zito yellow or the earlier yellow.
Do you know when these locomotives may have been in the original
"darker" yellow and when they were in the brighter "canary" yellow?
Bob
A: The C&NW started using "Zito" yellow (not an official name) in 1981. The RSD-5 was likely repainted in the original yellow which certainly looked bright next to all the grimy locomotives it would have been compared to.
There is an RSD-5 preserved. It's not the scheme you are working on but take a look. The yellow should be equivalent to what you are seeing.
http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?road_number=CNW%201689
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locoPicture.aspx?id=51323
Erich
The 1667 was in the old yellow in August of 1978. It was retired in Feburary of 1981, so the older yellow is probably the answer as Erich indicated. It did not really last into the "Zito" era.
Joe
Q: I am looking for more information onC&NW repair facility M19A, so I can model a similar facility.
Bob
A: M19A was used for diesels only. Are you looking for plans or photos (interior / exterior?), or the sort of work done there?
A time period would be helpful because the early diesels had somewhat different needs.
Joe
Q: I am painting up some 3 bay hoppers with yellow ends and also some quad hoppers. What color of green do I use.. The ones I see on railroad today looks like a John Deer green or MKT, or is it just faded out.
A: After 13 years, a hopper that was painted in C&NW’s final year would have experienced a lot of fading. Most were not painted that recently, so their paint has faded severely.
For comparison take a look at a couple of photos. Pay particular attention to the contrast between the green and the C&NW logo.
This car has faded pretty badly:
http://www.shastarails.com/photos/pv.asp?pid=5838
This car has maintained its darker color but has still faded some:
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1213227
If you have the C&NWHS Final Freight Car Roster book, take a look at pages 17 and 103 for two great shots of the cars when they were brand-new. If you don’t have the book, we still have it available on our website. It’s a great reference for C&NW freight cars and includes many excellent photographs.
http://www.cnwhs.org/shopping/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=39
The color you choose will depend on how you like to run your trains…clean or weathered. For a weathered look, your suggested paint colors would be a good starting point. If you want a color that matches the cars straight out of the paint shop, my personal opinion is that Scalecoat C&NW green is the closest match.
Erich
Q: I am modelling the C&NW in Waukegan Il. around 1949. I have a BLI model of an EMD NW2 but it is painted in BN colors. I want to repaint and letter it for one used by the C&NW in 1949. I don't recall one of these even being used in the Waukegan area but I like the model and want to keep it.
Bruce
A: I think that what you saw in Waukegan was a SW-1 switcher.
In the '50's they had only a couple NW-2's and they were paired with calf units.
The C&NW moved switchers around between the yards. Sometimes steam; sometimes Alco's, sometimes NW-2's. 1948 was a transition year for painting diesels. The old (mostly) black scheme on the switchers started to be repainted into the green and yellow that we remember. Probably, at one time or other, most of the models of switchers were there in Waukegan.
Joe
Q: The streamlined E-4s were painted Pullman green but there was no mention of the color of the stripes. Were they gold or yellow?
Dean
A: The strips were imitation Gold. Tom has color chip.
LK
Q: I am convinced that several years ago, someone mailed me a copy of your magazine which featured an article on Lon Chaney, who filmed the movie "Thunder" in Green Bay in 1929. It may have been the author himself. The film was based on the railroad and used a C&NW train in Green Bay and the surrounding area.
Can you please advise if your magazine did in fact publish an article on Lon Chaney?
Michael
A: You are correct about everything.
In fact, it was omitted from our paper index of articles. This makes it very difficult to find.
Lon died soon after the movie was filmed, if my memory is correct. At Green Bay he worked in the cold and snow,along the C&NW, and contracted pneumonia, but he sometimes went out anyway to work, which proved to be very unhealthy.
Joe
Q: Wind River Canyon, Wyoming
When was the line built? When was it sold? Why was it sold? What plans did the C&NW have to expand past Lander, Wy?
RJ
A: Things were done is sements, so keep that in mind.
The line reached Lander and the first train arrived there in 1906. It took a few years to get from the lines in Nebraska.
The line was abandoned in segments because of lack of business and also because the Burlington allowed the C&NW to share their track to Casper, permitting the C&NW abandonment(s).
The line from Riverton to Lander was abandoned in 1975.
From Casper AFB to Riverton in 1988
From Casper AFB to Sean Chohee in 1989
(earlier from Illco to Shoshoni in 1944)
Yes, the C&NW did plan to extend from Lander, west, but it never happened, for a number of reasons. We had a short article on it many years ago, and a friend of mine donated the papers to an Archives in Cheyenne, WY.
Joe
Q: Recently I came into possesion of what I believe is a white linen table cloth. At first I thought it was just a plain table cloth. But when I opened it up I saw the C&NW logo embossed on it in what is possibly white satin or silk.
I'm wondering if you can provide some history as to when this might have been used by the C&NW and for what purpose. Were they used on Pullman dining cars or were they an employee give away?
Ed
A: We don't have any definitive information on this item.
It is true, however, that the C&NW ran their own dining car service, and they used table cloths. They were not a Pullman item and they were not give-aways. They did sometimes "walk away" from the C&NW with or without permission. It is impossible for us, anyway, to date such an item, but it likely was pre-1964, when most of the older trains with dining cars went out of service.
Joe
Q: C&NW's relationship with P&PU from those early days (1902) is something I'm curious about. It seems that, perhaps when South Pekin Yard opeend in 1913, P&PU started switching C&NW's Adams Street Yard and customers located in the yard's vicinity. That arrangement lasted for years and I've been told it ended in April 1981, probably when C&NW began directed service on the Rock Island's Peoria Terminal line from Iowa Jct. to Hollis.
Then there's C&NW's S. I. passenger service, which lasted from 1902 to 1931, with caboose accommodations offered until 1946. If enough information could be obtained, that might be an article itself!
C&NW had trackage rights on CB&Q's Buda - Elmwood line to reach the Allendale Mine at Wyoming, until 1975. They even had trackage rights on the Q from Farmington to Norris to serve the Traux Traer Mine! From 1933 to 1960, they had trackage rights on the M&StL to serve the Rapatee Mine at Middle Grove.
David
A: In the Archives, I remember only one strictly SI Div. Employee Timetable. Later it became a subdivision of the Galena Div.
I know there have been questions about the P&PU, but I have not noticed much of any paperwork on it. However, we did get a photo opportunity there on one of the railfan trips many years ago. (locomotives)
The Peoria area did not generate a lot of interest at headquarters, from what I have seen
Another great topic(s), never covered, are the C&NW coal mines to the south and to the north of Peoria, e.g. Superior Coal (in addition to the ones you mentioned.)
Joe
Q: Can you tell me where the Interurban turned around in Des Moines on the Perry to Des Moines line?
Do you have a map of the route? My parents rode on the interurban but can not remember where it turned around at.
Nancy
A: It appears that the main passenger terminal in Des Moines was at Grand Ave. and 2nd St.
and the interurban line that they took was the Des Moines & Central Iowa from Perry.
This was taken from the book Iowa Trolleys.
Joe
Q: I am a member of the Oklahoma Railway Museum. We happen to have an old CNW commuter car that we run on our short line here. Sadly, no longer painted in the
yellow as she should be! I was told she was CNW number 7721.
Do you have any information on her?
A: This is one of the roller bearing cars, which were the newest thing before the bilevels.
These cars arrived just as the C&NW dropped the yellow and green and went to Pullman Green, their delivery color. However, at the end of their lives, a few were painted in yellow and green to match the new bilevels.
We have some diagram sheets of paint schematics.
Joe
Q: I am currently building a 1-1/2 to the foot live steam scale model of the C&NW class E2A steam locomotive #2908, one of the 4 used on the "400".
I have C&NW drawings of this locomotive and they have been of unmeasurable help.
2 things these drawings don't cover are:
#1, what color( s) were used on the "400" placards that were on the smokebox front and under the running boards above the fire box sides?
#2 what are the 3 notes used in the whistle?
Peter
A: I think this answer may not be in our collection. We probably have color brochures, but they are based on black and white with the addition of color at a later date, as the brochure was being assembled. The whistle is probably impossible. It may have had an air horn.
Joe
Q: I purchased two of the CStPM&O gons.
I assume the cars with "Return to Itasca Wis when empty" were in some kind of dedicated service. Could you tell me what specifically was shipped in
these cars from Itasca?
Bob
A: It is hard to say for sure at this late date, but the odds are very high that they were used in pulpwood service.
Joe
Q: I am attempting to discover the worth of a schematic of a Gondola car.
Donna
A: It is like an auction or eBay. It is worth what the folks participating are willing to pay.
Another factor is the size. If it is one of the smaller ones, say 7 x 9",it is worth less that the full plans which may be 1.5 x 2.5 feet. (Those numbers are not actual sizes, but may be close.) If there was an actual photograph glued to it, the value would be larger.
You should not be expecting a large amount of money under normal circumstances
Joe
Q: I would like any information you may have available about a train accident on January 1st 1920 in the Town of Lake WI.
Robert
A: we have almost no information on accidents. The railroad did not want to publicize accidents and did not release any such information to us.
The modern Union Pacific holds records for only 10 years after any legal work is completed, which kind of puts it into perspective.
I assume that you checked the newspapers in the area. They considered railroad accidents top-line news. They are the best source.
Joe--
Q: In the 30's-40's what freight engine was normally used on the Iowa
Division, Jewel Junction - Wall Lake line. They used the same engine for the psgr. train when
the doodlebug was broken, which was often.
Jerry
A: Without doing research, I can tell you that it was almost certainly an R-1.
While R-1's were considered freight locomotives, they pulled passenger trains frequently on branch lines.
Joe
Q: I was wondering if the 'ridge runner' line west of Madison, WI. has ever been covered in past issues of The C&NW Magazine. I tried to do an archives search but had no luck.
Mike
A: I remember a mini-article by Joe Holman, but my search in our NWL index turned up nothing. Perhaps it was in Trains magazine.
I am working with three NWL authors to write a full history of the line and its personnel. It will be some time before it gets into print,
Joe
Q: I would like to know how close the MDC ribbed side ore car is a match for the CNW ore car.
I remember a few years back that someone built a CNW ore car in one of the magazines but not much more info was given.
I'm thinking about getting the CNW Final Freight Car book and was wondering if that might have a drawing of the ore cars with dimensions?
Larry
A: The Final Freight Car book has car diagrams for various cars. A diagram is not the best for modeling by itself because the "picture" is schematic - though the dimensions are correct. Sometimes the diagram + a good photo will be OK.
If you knew which number series of ore car you wanted, I could probably copy the actual C&NW plans with dimensions. But this is perhaps more expensive than you had hoped.
Joe
The Roundhouse CNW 70T Ore Car is a good representation of the 1927 Pullman-Standard cars. It is a little clunky as should be expected for the state-of-the-art at the time. But all in all it is pretty good.
The most significant problem is that it only represents the 1927 cars. These cars had a lever brake control on the B end. All later cars, which were all built by Bethlehem, used several varieties of brake wheels.
A very few of the 1955 order had a channel section for the side post above the bolster. All the others were essentially identical.
I doubt if any of the 1927 cars had pellet extensions added as they were ready to be scrapped before they were needed.
To be accommodated on the high level docks all had to have the same length and width.
The other problem that I recall is that the car to car coupling distance is too great. I suspect that this was an accommodation for sharp modeling curves. Since the wheels extend beyond the car body a scale coupling distance would require some generous curves for good operation.
Model Railroader published a scale drawing of the 1927 car in the April 1940 issue. In case you don’t have this issue Kalmbach has a service of photocopies of out of print drawings and such.
Charles
Q: I am currently building a 1-1/2 to the foot live steam scale
model of the C&NW class E2A steam locomotive #2908, one of the 4 used
on the "400". I have the frame complete as well as the cylinder
block, axle boxes and am working on the boiler. I was fortunate to
find a fellow named Carl Ulrich back a few year ago that had original
C&NW drawings of this locomotive and they have been of unmeasurable
help. 2 things these drawings don't cover are #1, what color( s) were
used on the "400" placards that were on the smokebox front and under
the running boards above the fire box sides, and #2 what are the 3
notes used in the whistle?
Peter
A:
Q: I was wondering if anyone could help me find information on the
traditional yellow that was used on rebuilt SD40-2's and GP7's in the
early 1990's. I am looking for a paint brand, the paint name (is it
stagecoach yellow?) Or does anyone have a paint code for it? I would
like to paint some models, and I really would apprecaiate finding out
this information.
Michael
A: Here are the paint codes I have recorded for Traditional Yellow. I also have codes for Original Yellow, “Zito” Yellow, and Green if you need them. Many of the old DuPont paints are discontinued due to lead content but some vendors may be able to convert the code to a current paint. I have not attempted to have any of these mixed up. Joe is right when he says modern paint looks different. The paint base and dried surfaces are different so the color and reflectance have changed over time. But you can get close.
C&NW Traditional Yellow Imron 826-Y-68445
C&NW Traditional Yellow Imron HPC 333-68445
C&NW Traditional Yellow Imron HPC 4W8-40P
It is my understanding that C&NW and Penske used the same yellow. So if you can find a current Penske yellow (as used on their trucks) you should have a match for C&NW.
Erich
C&NWHS
Q: I am looking for info concerning the CNW's Aquisition of the Chicago & Fox River Valley RR.
Mike
A: Both Rich and I used Yesterday and Today, the official history of the C&NW published in 1910. There is no recognized author, but it was actually William Stennet.
Because of the distance back in time, it is very difficult to research lines like that, and that book does not tell much more, if anything.
Joe
Q: how and where the C&NW steam trains reversed direction for a return trip from the passenger terminal in Chicago. I have read that the entire train was turned around, presumably on a wye near the station, but I can not find any information on the location of the tracks that were used. If you could refer me to a map or other document that explains this.
Jim
A: The short answer is that the trains were not turned. But the locomotives were turned on the turntable at the Chicago Ave. Roundhouse.
After letting their passengers off at the Terminal, they were "tail hosed" backwards to the Erie St. Coach Yard (or California Ave. Yard). A trainman stood on the back platform with a temporary air brake in his hand because the engineer was backing and could not see the tracks back there.
In the afternoon the process was reversed. This oversimplifies it a bit, but that is the general idea.
Joe
Q: Were SD7s or 9s ever used in commuter service with the gallery cars?
John
A: The SD7's and 9's were used some times with the gallery cars. the bilevel cars from 1955 to about 1961 were not push-pull. They required that the locomotives change ends, just like on the old suburban cars. And there were no cab cars. Those old bilevels had to be extensively rebuilt to enter the push-pull era.
Joe
Q: When were freighthouse operations discontinued in Minneapolis ? After the railroad ceased freight operations, was the building used for any railroad related purpose? The freighthouse remains, and is now a luxury townhome development.
Dan
A: The C&NW took over all operations from that subsidiary in 1957, so they probably discontinued freight loading in the early 1960's. But we can't be certain of that.
Joe
What little I do know about the area…..it’s called “West Minneapolis” (East Mpls is the yard behind the new UofM stadium near the St Paul border….still partially used by CMO/C&NW successor Union Pacific). CMO locos would leave the roundhouse north of the freight house, pick up short trains consisting of cars from the freight house, perishable empties, and little interchange from the flour mills, and head east to get their main block of cars in East Mpls . Also pick up a few more cars in East St Paul .
Dave
Q: After reviewing a number a photographs of large and small C&NW steam
engines, I am unable to determine the colors of the cab top, tender deck
and cab windows. The color photograph of Engine 2159 on page 41 of Chicago
and North Western In Color, Volume 1, shows a Red Oxide cab top and Black
cab windows. What are the standard colors of C&NW steam engine cab tops,
tender decks and cab windows?
Bob
A:
Q: At Hurley, Wisconsin the C&NW ran a short line southwest of there to a town called Osborne or Potato Junction, but I'm not sure of this. Would you know the year or years it was built or abandoned? Did it have freight or passenger service?
Jim
A:
Q: Antigo, Wisconsin was a 4 way junction. At one time was there passenger service east and west? When was that line built and abandoned?
Jim
A:
Q: Did the different railroads, other than the Chicago and Northwestern, operate at the Aniwa and Mattoon, Wisconsin locations?
Jim
A:
Q:
When combining two sections of passenger trains (such as at Green Bay or Monico, WI), one locomotive was always wye'ed into the "trailing" or backward facing position. Why was this move necessary? Why did the C&NW never operate E or F units "elephant style" with both units facing forward?
Scott
A: The simple answer is that they did not have nose door connections for the cables. Especially after the Cummins HEP auxiliary power was installed, it would have been a lot of cable mess. And the HEP cables would have to have been situated where the plow/pilot was generally located. Positioning of cables is complicated.
Joe
The original C&NW rebuilt E and F units did have HEP receptacles on both the front and rear. They normally operated back to back so the front of the trailing unit had to have receptacles on the front in order to get power to the coaches. I have seen an elephant style unit hookup. At Christmas time many years ago, No.209 had an E8 facing north trailed by a F7 facing north and then a F7 facing south. I do have a photo someplace of No, 214 leaving Green Bay with 3 A units, two pointed one way and one pointed the other way. In the steam boiler days, the Fisherman Special (sometimes) was operated with an E7 pointed north and trailed by a FP9 facing north. I also have this photo, someplace. The 27-point cable for connecting two units mu'ed was located under a small flap type door next to the headlight.
The C&NW purchased used E units for commuter service. Those did not have front end HEP connections, I think. It's been a few years.
Jim
A lot of things come to my mind. Such as it was not practicable to have the main reservoir air hoses, the actuating or equalizing air hoses and the sander air hoses accessible from the plow or nose front end of the covered wagon passenger locomotives which would have been necessary when operating in MU trailing and facing. Not to mention the large diameter pipes for the high pressure steam connections that would have been required on the nose/plow end of the E-7's. There just might not have been the room behind the plow to accommodate all this "stuff" and still be able to make the connections to the other locomotive ahead of it if it were facing forward, and trailing. There likely would not have been room behind the plow/nose to reach the valves to turn them "on" and "off" for all these additional pipes and or steam connections.
I agree with Joe. The front ends were intentionally kept as sleek and clutter free as possible which meant no additional connections required for operating in MU trailing / facing, and behind another unit ahead. I still have a raft of EMD and other locomotive builders operators manuals in storage up in my attic. When I have more time, I could check out the diagrams to make certain there are zero connections on the head or plow end of the E and F units. Its been a long time since I was on a covered wagon passenger locomotive. There was the train line air hose, under the draw bar, but that is all I recall on the nose/plow front end. I should look at the operator manuals.
Truman
Q: I have one Cab Coach car from Kato. This car is painted at C&NW colors.
At the cab engineer and conducter side, there are lamps.
When would these lamps be used?
And on top of the commuter car, in front, is another red lamp. When would this lamp been used?
Can you help me with a explanation of use with this lights?
Johan
A: I think the lamps you refer to on the engineer's and fireman's sides are the marker lamps. They indicate when the train is running. When the train is being pulled by the locomotive, the lamp facing rear is red because that is the rear of the train on that run.
The other red lamp in the front is a warning light. It comes on automatically when there is an emergency brake application and the train is in trouble. It warns other trains. However, the lamp can be turned on manually. I have seen an engineer use it when the train was stopped and was supposed to reverse direction, out on the line, at a crossover. It would warn other trains that he was stopped and was about to reverse direction and crossover to the other track. It is very rare that this warning light is on. Most people have never seen it on.....though I have in the crossover example I just mentioned.
Joe
Q: After reading over information on the Alco's in the 2007 Vol 1 edition, I did not see a single slogan on a locomotive . I checked through my other issues and the only slogan I found was "Falcon Service."
Are my model locomotives incorrectly marked by the manufacturer or did C&NW
have slogans on some of their freight locomotives? If so, when were these slogans used? What years would they have been put on locomotives?
Larry
A: In 1948 the C&NW tried to apply slogans to almost all the switchers and road switchers. There had been some slogans before, in 1944, etc., but 1948 was the date of the major painting program. Through the 1950's the slogan was essentially the scheme for switchers and road switchers. . However, that was an expensive paint/decal job, and by the 1960's the locomotives were ordered and painted in a simplified scheme, without the slogans. Things changed slowly because of money problems, so some locomotives lasted with slogans longer than others. To be sure of any one locomotive, a study of the photos would have to be made.
Joe
Q: I am 70 years old; and my wife says that I have to start getting rid of things. I have several dozen 35 mm slides of the C&NW. Many are roster shots. Many are not. A lot of them are from the Ames-Boone, Iowa area. Do you think anybody in your organization would be interested in them for the price of the postage? They are sorted in numerical order.
I used to belong to your group when I lived in Iowa. I enjoyed many of your conventions in years past.
Robert
A: Thanks for contacting the C&NWHS.
We certainly would like to add your slides to our Archives collection. We appreciate your contacting us. It is very thoughtful of you.
Joe
Q: Would you have any information or pictures about the history of the
roundhouse at Mankato, Mn.? Soon to be torn down and what a great loss.
David
A: The CStPM&O roundhouse was a brick, 8-stall roundhouse, built in 1929. 5 stalls were removed in 1985. It had a 70' air operated turntable, which was in place for the earlier roundhouse on the same site.
Joe
Q: The C & N W built a beltline around Milwaukee in 1910-12, and the village Butler, Wi
grew up around it. We need to select a color for the siding on the new
building and are wondering if you can give us any suggestions as to what
color might be appropriate?
Marilyn
A: The wood/frame buildings were mostly painted a oxide red (lighter brown) with dark brown trim in the great days of the railroad. In the 1960's the Standard colors became a medium gray with a light gray (whitish) trim. If you need further help with this, let us know. Naturally, brick depots did not follow the color rules.
A few Wisconsin depots were painted yellow with green trim to match the "400" colors, starting in the late 1950's.
The brown colors were mixed by the railroad in their own shops, with iron oxide for the basis of the color. So there is no color number outside the railroad. I don't know from whom they purchased the gray colors.
Joe
Q: have question about the C&NW's old line that ran between Nachusa and Nelson Illinois, just South of Dixon on the Main line. I have never understood what the purpose of this line was? I see from my copy of the C&NW abandonment book that the "Northwestern" abandoned the line on February 16th, 1956. My cousin whom lives out near Sterling believes He has found remnants of this line[possibly] in the forms of bridge abutments where it crosses some small ditch type creeks South of Dixon.
Peter
A: This line was a cut-off line that the dispatcher could use to move (or temporarily) park slower moving freight trains. It allowed the fast passenger trains to move along. Or at least this was the theory.
From memory, It was called the Linn County Cut-off.
Joe
Q: I am writing an article about various students who once attended a college in Canada, and one of these students was John Herbert Kincaid. I have learned through his obituary that Mr. Kincaid was a physician for the Chicago and North Western Railway for many years (close to 40, I believe), so I am writing to ask if you know what such a job would entail. Would he have been hired as a general physician for railway employees, or would it have been for some other purpose, like possibly assessing health claims?
Mary Ann
A: In general, there were two types of physicians hired by the C&NW. The few in regular employment worked at the general offices or in large towns with lots of employees. They would do physical exams and work on general hygene and the prevention of epidemic problems.
However, most of the doctors working for the C&NW were regular doctors in towns along the line. They were on retainer and would see employees who happened to be injured or sick in their area. They could probably go for months without seeing anybody. Hospitals were in short supply in the old days and there were no ambulances. The Company Physician would have to have the man brought to him or drive out and see him...... usually the former. The employee timetables had the addresses (and phone numbers) of the Company Physicians along the line.
I have only one database with names from the newsletters, but it is far from complete. I will check that for you.
I am cc'ing Craig Pfannkuche, our Society Genealogist, who looks up employees, without charge. Doctors may be a problem as they probably are not in the regular/hourly employee personnel files.
Mr. Kinkaid also might have worked for the subsidiary CStPM&O, which had a number of former Canadian citizens.
Joe
Q: I am trying to model C&NW steel heavy weight passenger cars 1920 through
1950. I am seeking the exterior color scheem; I know the base color was
Pullman green but what color was the trim and what color was the lettering
"Chicago & North Western"? I recall it being white as was the car number.
Is there a detailed book that I can find the information in?
Joel
A: Actually, the heavyweight cars were green and yellow until about 1929 when they started converting to Pullman Green.
There is no book on lettering an colors and there probably never will be. The C&NW threw out most of the passenger car information. Our Passenger Car Diagram book gives the basic color in the 1950-era, but not the letting.
From memory, I think the lettering was gold, but some may have been painted with white lettering. Using gold is the safe choice. There was really no trim.
Joe
Q: I am looking for imformation on a railroad. It was sometimes called the Calico railroad by locals in Clinton county in Iowa. I believe it was suppose to run from Lyons Iowa to Anamosa Iowa. The original plan was to make it all the way to Council Bluff. I know that the CNW took control of it. Looking for any info, pictures, locomotives and rolling stock used, etc. Additionally I've heard the trains that ran this route called milk trains, could you explain what that means and what a milk train usually consisted of?
Randy
A: the "Midland" route from Clinton/Lyons to Anamosa, IA.
You are in luck. Paul Horst, just put out a book on that line. It is a relatively inexpensive book that has the history, some photos, and some maps.
Paul is at: prhorst@hotmail.com
A "milk train" has a double meaning. The slang use means that it was a very slow train that made all stops, with additional time for loading milk cans: A negative connotation.
A more accurate definition is that the train was a local and stopped at depots or milk platforms that were scheduled to have milk cans. Often it would consist of a passenger car, a baggage car and perhaps a milk car. If there was no milk car the cans would be loaded onto the baggage car.
Sometimes the larger milk trains had all milk cars and ran at fairly high speed (once loaded) into the city. Often Chicago was the destination, and often the Bowman Dairy was the place that received the milk.
Joe
Q: I just saw an ad for an HO consist of the 400 showing an E8 A & B leading....Did the C&NW ever own a B unit?
Jim
A: There were no E8 B units, so the depiction is wrong.
The C&NW did own three types of passenger B units, and all were unusual- not traditional. Two of those were only used on suburban trains. The C&NW bought some FP7 B's which were dual service locomotives. On occasion they were used on the "400", but they were wearing their freight-unit black colors, which would not look very "400-ish".
At any rate, don't buy the E8 B unit if you want accuracy. There were none.
Joe
Q: What is the specific type of quarried rock blocks (&/or where quarried) of the old rock retaining walls which are currently still in place (i.e. not yet rebuilt with concrete) on the north facing retaining walls, and the consecutive overpass bridge retaining walls, of the elevated Geneva subdivision tracks, present from Noble Street westward out to and including the Pulaski Street bridge at M19A? (I've also noticed this same particular quarried rock retaining wall usage exists at the Clybourn Station bridges, and I suppose it may also still be in place at some Kenosha subdivision locations - but I haven't been out on that subdivision in a while to know off-hand). It looks to be some type of sedimentary rock, either a type of limestone or sandstone.
Chris
A: The information we have from the evaluations is not very helpful.
It states simply “ limestone rock faced, with granite bridge seat”
Limestone is found in many places.
I’m familiar with a limestone quarry at Quarry, Iowa, serviced by the C&NW.
Building in the area was made of the rock and maybe the C&NW used it also.
Many bridges in Iowa are made of limestone and are still standing. Most stone bridges were build before the turn of the century. After 1900 the labor cost for stone bridges made concrete the choice for bridges.
Ron CNWHS
Q: I am trying to find any and all information on this item. It is a clear glass rolling pin style liquid fire extinguisher, with a blue liquid inside. It appears to have a cork inserted in the top neck followed by what appears to be a concrete substance on top of the cork. It is aprox. 18 inches tall with a round bottom that sits in a cast steal base, and is held at the top by a two pronged cast steal fork. Again it has raised letters C.& NW.Ry.perpendicular to it's length that are aprox. an inch and a half tall from bottom to top. Any help would be deeply appreciated.
Rick
A: I am not sure what you want to know about the fire extinguisher, so I will make some comments.
They are neither common nor rare. I get about three questions on them per year, so some have survived. They were used in C&NW buildings where fire was a hazard. We recently came across a depot listing for one, which is not surprising because depots burned frequently in the old days.
I have been told that the blue substance is toxic and that the extinguisher should be kept in a safe place away from children.
Joe
The blue liquid contents is carbon tetrachloride very dangerous. It probably has a color added as carbon tetrachloride is colorless.
Ron
Q: Has CNWHS ever done an article on when, why and how the main line corridors were elevated through Chicago?
A: No, there has never been a comprehensive article on this topic, though it has been mentioned at times.
The main reason for the track elevation was that the City of Chicago wanted it done. (And the C&NW benefited from it also.) The astounding thing is that a private corporation did this. Nowadays, only the state or local governments could begin to afford this sort of mega-construction. Of course, it was not done all at once. The last sections were done in the 1930's.
We have information on all the work, but the topic needs some serious research time to pull it all together, and nobody has wanted to do it.
Joe
Q: Are there any resources available that might tell me when the C&NW closed its shops in Fond du Lac County, Wisconsin? It would help me date when a great-granduncle of mine left Wisconsin for Topeka, Kansas. He was a carpenter and helped build cars for the C&NW. It looks like they may have closed their shops in Fond du Lac sometime in the 1870s or 1880s. Any way to confirm this?
Jim
A: The shops were closed July 31, 1876 (at Fond du Lac) Companies like the Pullman Company took over the passenger car construction business.
Joe
Q: Are there any resources available that might tell me when the C&NW closed its shops in Fond du Lac County, Wisconsin? It would help me date when a great-granduncle of mine left Wisconsin for Topeka, Kansas. He was a carpenter and helped build cars for the C&NW. It looks like they may have closed their shops in Fond du Lac sometime in the 1870s or 1880s. Any way to confirm this?
Jim
A: Just so happened that I am researching the early history of the 40th Street Shops. At that time they were in Central Park, now part of Chicago.
On January 29, 1876 The Chicago Times reported that the apparent rumor was true, that the Northwestern was closing its Fond du Lac shops and consolidating them with the new Chicago shops.
Years ago, these shops were considered the best anywhere west of Chicago. A great many fine specimens of car architecture have been built in them. A committee of influential citizens went to Chicago on Wednesday to see if they could convince the officials to keep the shops at Fond du lac.
On February 20 the paper reported that it was pretty much a done deal. The Chicago Times said that the Fond du Lac shops along with the former Chicago Avenue shops in Chicago were consolidated at Central Park. Of course this spurred a large real estate boom in the area.
David
Q: I'm looking to do one of the CNW blue grain cars (not the ex-Rock cars). Could you tell me about cars and what kit, paint, and decals (if any), I could use to reproduce this car in HO.
Larry
A: I'm assuming you are referring to the CNW's 173000 series 4750 cubic foot grain cars built by Pullman Standard. To my knowledge, the cars were all painted green when delivered, but some of the cars appeared blue after exposure to the weather after many years. Intermountain Railway makes the car in HO. You could try Oddballs Decals http://www.oddballsdecals.org/ or Herald King Decals http://www.heraldkingdecals.com/index.html and see if they produce a set for the car you are modeling. My suggestion would be to obtain a color photo of one of the "blue" cars and try your best to match the color. I did a quick look in the C&NWHS book Chicago and North Western Final Freight Car Roster, and there is a photo of car 173671 taken in October 1996 (about 20 years after delivery in it's original paint) on page 125 which appears blue.
The only other blue grain cars with CNW reporting marks I can think of are the 463000 series former Percival Grain FMC grain hoppers. In the late 1980s and 1990s, the C&NW leased this group of about 25 cars. The cars were a medium blue color with white lettering. A photo of 463017 appears on page 138 of the book Chicago and North Western Final Freight Car Roster. MDC (now Athearn) makes the FMC car in HO.
CNWHS
Dennis
Q: Can you assist please with a hopper query? I bought your Final Freight Car Roster, and have used this for making/rebuilding/repainting models for some time now. On your site there is a section for freight cars and there is a shot of car #172643 a 3 bay hopper. None of these hoppers appear in your book so what happened to them?? Did they all get sold way before the UP merger or were they missed out?
Alan
A: Alan,
Thanks for using our/ my freight car book.
The car you mentioned is in the 172000 - 172499 series, but it got confused because you switched digits. That series was on lease, apparently, and went to NAHX before 1993 (or earlier) and certainly before the merger. That is why it was not in the freight car book. Many were running around with NAHX restenciled on them after 1993.
Joe
Car series 172000-172499 was 500 cars, built by ACF in February and March, 1973. The cars had a capacity of 4600.
A good supplemental volume to our Final Freight Car Roster is the book published in 1991 by the Society of Freight Car Historians: CNW Freight Car Roster and Pictorial. You can check on availability with David Casdorph:
http://dgcasdor.ipower.com/dgcasdorph/
Erich
Q: On a recent trip to Iowa, I tracked down (so to speak) several old pony truss bridges along the UPRR right of way that, of course, were built in the C&NW days.
The bridges are all of similar design, steel pony trusses, some with solid iron girdders and others with steel laced girders, wood decking, wood piers and most have a great deal of dirt excavated to the approaches that give a vehicle the appearance of vaulting over the tracks.
You can see an example at http://bridgehunter.com/ia/marshall/webster/ which is an extant bridge at LeGrand, Iowa. There are many more that are nearly identical, as if built in a shop somewhere and shipped to each location. (Another most historical example is located in Mount Vernon, Iowa, on the original route of the Lincoln Highway.
J.R.
A: We do not have any available information at this time
Ron
Q: My husband's grandmother traveled from Mauston, Wisconsin to Highmore, South Dakota in 1913 to teach and returned in 1914. We would like to know how much it cost, how long it took and what cities were close to Mauston and Highmore that she would have departed from and arrived at.
Jill
A: Mauston was not on the C&NW. It was on the Milwaukee Road (CM&StP). Highmore was on the C&NW.
Back in those days there were thousands of route combinations, but I will give you the most likely scenario.
She probably took a Milwaukee Road train to the Twin Cities and took a cab or transfer over to the C&NW-related station. From there she would take the C&NW-related train to Mankato and transfer to the train going directly to Highmore.
To go on an all-C&NW route, she would have had to go by wagon (or early auto) to Wyeville or Adams, WI, which would have been an imposition.
I can get you the possible 1914 schedule on the C&NW and one from another year on the Milwaukee road, but we do not have any listing of fares. Many young people traveled by coach. If they had a source of money, they might go Pullman for part or all of the trip, so the fares varied by accommodation. But most went by coach. People watched their money back then.
Joe
Q: I bought a brass padlock, with key, with the initials C&NW RR in big cap letters on the back. The lock, by Slaymaker, Lanc, Pa. works fine though it certainly looks used. It has a big S stamped on the other side of the hasp.
Tim
A: The value of the lock depends on the type and the age, but, as a rule, the locks are not worth loads of money, though yours does have a key, which is an advantage .
We are not dealers, so we don't want to put a value amount on it. The best prices are obtained on eBay.
Joe
Q: Are there any resources available that might tell me when the C&NW closed its shops in Fond du Lac County, Wisconsin? It would help me date when a great-granduncle of mine left Wisconsin for Topeka, Kansas. He was a carpenter and helped build cars for the C&NW. It looks like they may have closed their shops in Fond du Lac sometime in the 1870s or 1880s. Any way to confirm this?
Jim
A: Shops open and close as conditions warrant. The shops at North Fond du Lac were repairing track machines until about the end of the C&NW in 1995. I think you mean the passenger car construction shops.
In addition, the main shops in town were owned by the Soo Line, not the C&NW, and remain open even today, but under different ownership.
Joe
Q: I am trying to find any type of info on the milk bottles used on the Streamliner 400 CNW dining cars. I have seen milk bottles that are 7 oz. half pints with a 400 embossed in parenthesis and also embossed 400 on the base that were advertised as CNW dining car milk bottles. Can you verify that these were actually the bottles that were used on the dining cars.
Jim
A: We do not have any information on mailk bottles. We do know for certain that there were 400 milk bottles used on the trains. They probably came from Bowman Dairy.
Joe
Q: I remember being taken to a turntable (and perhaps a roundhouse) by my grandfather circa 1948-50. I remember this turntable being in Highland Park. However, I can't find any remains of this on a topographical map. Did this turntable actually exist where I remember it?
James
A: That turntable is firmly in my mind because I watched them turn engines on it in downtown H.P.
It was located where the west parking lot is today, across the tracks from the Metra depot, south of Laurel Ave. The whole layout has changed since then.
In a few minutes I will try to send a map attachment of the old days in HP. The engine house blew down during a mini-tornado around 1913, so no living person remembers it and it even pre-dates the map.
The photo attached to this email shows the layout around 1932, looking north. It was about the same in 1948. The depot in the background is long-gone, and the Metra depot is in the empty land across the tracks from the photographer. Laurel Ave is in the background. The photographer is standing on the water tank.
Joe
Q: I’m wondering if anyone from your organization has heard of a structure called a ‘flycatcher’? A flycatcher was used to measure the cargo height before going under a bridge.
Scott
A: I have never heard the name flycatcher but why not. The term ,"telltale" is more common. They were used to warn trainmen about low clearance. Before radios the trainmen would stand on the top of box cars to pass hand signals from the conductor, on the ground, to the engineer, at the other end of the train. If the trainman was facing the wrong way he had the unfortunate chance of being brushed off the top by a lower bridge or door opening. There were many men killed or injured on the job with this type of move. The telltales were a series of chainlike rods supported over the track that would warn the trainman. Hopefully it gave him enough warning to stop the train or get in the clear.
They were very common before radios.
Rich
Yes, "telltale" is the common term. I agree. Since that is not an official term, there could be others. See Rich's reply below. Scroll farther down below my address.
The official Standards book for the C&NW calls them "Whip Guards", but I never heard that term actually. used. Measuring cargo height would not have ordinarily been done because a paid crewman would have been needed, and he would have had to be able to signal the engineer. Cargo would not ordinarily be higher than the box car and was more expendible than people. These things were used in the days before electronics were common.
Joe
Q: Did the CNW use any of their E-8's for freight service at anytime or did they just use them for passenger service? I would also like to know the same about their 4-6-2's.
Rob
A: The E-8's were never used for freight service on the C&NW. Always passenger service.
The 4-6-2's were not supposed to be freight locomotives, but they were used from time to time on freights. It was to assist a regular locomotive, which was disabled or having problems. They would not intentionally assign one to freight, but conditions and finances were sometimes difficult.
The Rock Island sometimes used E-8's for freight, but they were truely desperate, and soon went bankrupt.
Joe
Q: I just finished an O scale model of the CNW GE/alco box cab. For the mid-fifties era paint scheme, I used a B & W pic of box cab #1000 and color photos of CNW Whitcombs #404 and 410. Both Whitcombs were painted black overall with green and yellow striped ends.
I assumed the same overall black and CNW yellow/green striped ends color scheme would apply to the box cab. Do I need to repaint the loco overal CNW green with CNW yellow/green ends?
Tom
A: I located one of the 1948 painting drawings, but it did not show the box cab. It showed a Baldwin switcher and two FT units.
Lloyd's book says that only the 1002 was painted in the full yellow and green. The 1000 is shown in 1952 in its final scheme which matches your model.
The 1200 was also painted in the full yellow and green, but it is shown in Lloyd's next book (the 3rd).
Joe
Q: I was interested when the railroad laid tracks across Goose Lake. The railroad hauls iron ore from the Tilden (Ishpeming) and Empire mines (Palmer). Goose lake is located near Negaunee, Michigan (Marquette County). It is in the Richmond Township.
Cleveland Cliffs apparently owns the land around the lake. I was also interested in how the Lake got its name.
Kurt
A: Our book on origin of place names states:
"This station was named from a nearby lake. The lake was named from its palpable resemblance to a goose in flight."
The track was completed to Nagaunee in 1864, including Goose Lake. I have no more details.
Joe
Q: I am doing some 3D digital modeling of CNW GP 7’s and 9’s… in a few photos I have noticed what looked to me like a scratch or some sort of damage in the area where a …dynamic brake housing would be… I was told that it is the “radio equipped” insignia… but I cannot seem to find a good, clear photo of what it looks like… and I have looked through literally hundreds of photos on numerous sites and none are clear enough to really make out the design… if you might know where I can get a good photo it would be appreciated.
Mike
A: That was very common on the early orders of steel cabooses, and I think it would be the same design. Check the sites for cabooses in the early 1960's.
Joe
Q: Ref: Chicago StPaul/Minneapolis & Omaha RR
The train that ran between StPaul/Minnapolis & Omaha in mid 1950s, the through sleeper car that went to LA was it in UP colors or C&NW colors?
Russ
A: We think that it was quite unlikely that C&NW-painted sleepers went past Omaha on the UP. The UP would have prefered matching colors and equipment, and the C&NW would have prefered to keep their own sleepers in the local pool. So the sleeper would have been a UP one. The C&NW was used to running mixed cars.
Naturally, there are exceptions to everything, and there is probably a photo somewhere of a C&NW sleeper in LA.
I think the train you refer to was the "North American".
Joe
Q: I recently acquired Pat Dorins book on Michigan ore lines and saw some interesting shots of the ore loader. The photos were attributed to the historical society. Are there copies and / or blueprints of this machine ?
Tom
A: I do not believe we have the drawings of the loader.
Joe
Q: I am trying to model the Iron Country Limited in the 1950s and I am curious about the train's consist, especially north of Green Bay and on to Ishpeming. I was told that for a time in 1955, the Georgetown University and the Fordham University sleepers were assigned to trains #161 and #162. What type of sleeping cars were they (heavyweight?,
room arrangement?
Andy
A: Our passenger information, including consists, are very limited because the C&NW threw out that material before we started collecting it. I have been trying to collect consists from private hands, but it is slow going. I don't have the Iron Country.
Yes, the Pullmans were heavyweights.
Joe
Q: I am modelling the C&NW from Waukegan
Il to Kenosha Wi and fondly remember an Atlantic on a bridge over a city street in Kenosha. I would like a brass replica (or similar) of that loco for my layout. Do you know
where I could begin the search?
Bruce
A: there have been three HO brass models produced for the C&NW 4-4-2 Class D Atlantic. M.B. Austin, PFM/Tenshodo, and Overland Models/Ajin. The 1986 production Overland
version is the nicest, but also the most rare and most expensive. The M.B. Austin models are probably equally rare, but they are from 1958-60.
PFM made hundreds of models from 1955 through 1966 and they turn up frequently on
eBay and at online hobby shops.
Erich
Q: I am researching the line that is now the Altoona Sub belonging to Union
Pacific. I know there is a yard in Eau Claire.
My main questions are:
1. Was this line bought prior to the purchase the C&NW in 1995 or was it just
taken over at this time?
2.Is this a vital route for Union Pacific presently? As I have seen the amount
of traffic decrease drastically over time.
3. What other railroads used this line if any?
4. What were the main industries along the line? I'd assume grain was a big
industry as the elevators are aplenty.
I do not know the answer to this. I can say that the Union Pacific uses this as a main line, and not as a feeder line to bring business. The trains generally run right past all the towns on the line. But the switchers at Altoona obviously have some workto do. If needed, I can get a more detailed answer from a friend who lives in the greater Eau Claire area.
A: 1. The line came with the 1995 purchase.
2. It is still considered vital. If not, it would have been gone by now. Of course, corporations change their minds all the time.
3. No other railroads use the line. However, there are sometimes rerouted trains and foreign locomotives, under complicated arrangements.
4.I do not know the answer to this. I can say that the Union Pacific uses this as a main line, and not as a feeder line to bring business. The trains generally run right past all the towns on the line. But the switchers at Altoona obviously have some work to do.
Joe
Q: In years past, at least in the Chicago region, I would see tri-color signal lights on signal bridges in horizontal arrangement, rather than vertically arranged as on othe railroads. The UP has not entirely removed these, for example ther are still horizontally arranged signals in West Chicago on the eastbound facing signal bridge just east of the station. Formerly there were other similar examples in Elmhurst, and I'm sure at many other Chicagoland locations. Was this peculiar to the C&NW and why was this arrangement done?
Robert
A: I think the idea was to avoid too-close vertical spacing when the colour lights replaced semaphores, using the same posts. It was really an arbitrary choice, though one not widely copied. They do have the slight advantage that there is no surface just below a light on which snow could build up, a reason sometimes quoted for why red is at the bottom on a railway signal (but probably just a story. a low red brings it more in line with the driver's view, which is plausible. There are no horizontal clearance advantages (actually, the reverse); maintenance and sighting will be exactly the same.
Joe
Maybe the chief signal maintainer at the time, thought it might be safer to change out bulbs if they were all on the same level.
From the crews point, the position of the signal indication remains the same, so I can't see much benefit there, especially at night.
I'm sure someone had a good reason at the time though, and they probably didn't ask the train crews.
Bruce
Q: Did the C&NW ever used the Baldy Mountain & Russian Hill in regular passenger service after the Streamliners went over to the Milwaukee Road in Oct. of 1955.
I know their ownership was turned over to the C&NW sometime in the late 40's.
David
A:
Q: Some rail maps show the CNW with a rail line that went north from Park Ridge, Illinois to met the Proviso-Valley cutoff around the Glenview Naval Air Station (it looks like it paralleled Greenwood Avenue).
If that is factual, what's the history of that line? Is there some publication or article that describes that line?
Frank
A:
Q: I recently purchased what is described as a 4-6-4 Hudson model locomotive and tender, described as Emerald Green in color.
Did the CNWHS actually run locomotives in this color?
I see what appears to be a Class E Pacific in your photo gallery which may come close, but it is an old photograph and I am not sure.
Tom
A: The description that you were given is wrong for the actual locomotive. The Hudsons, Class E-4, had no official color name that I know of, but in photographs color looks gray, like the gray cars in one of the streamlined trains. They also appeared to be a Pullman Green, which looks black when dirty because it is so dark. But not Emerald Green.
Ignore the Pacifics, which were a different story.
Joe
Q: Buffett and Sons was a grocery store that was in Omaha for one hundred years. It was founded by my great grandfather, Sidney Buffett who, at nineteen, came west from Long Island in 1867.
I'm trying to imagine the way he came and read the Cedar Rapids and Missouri River railroad came into Council Bluffs in 1867. I've also read that it was the Chicago and Northwestern. Was it the CR and MR or the CNW? And do you have any idea what road he might have taken from Long island to Chicago.
William
A: Thanks for contacting us about the 1867 trip to Omaha.
Yes, the CR&MR railroad was under the control of C&NW interests, and the C&NW soon took it over, under their own name. The only competition on that route was the Rock Island, which reached Omaha soon thereafter.
In those days there were many railroads, most of which would be considered fragmented by modern standards. One definite possibility that he came via the New York Central predecessors. The line that came into Chicago was the Michigan Central, which fell under the NYC later on. But there were many other possibilities.
Joe
Q: Did the C&NW have any 40' plug door boxcars? If so, are there any pics?
The CNWHS Store lists a set of decals for an O scale 40' plug door. Are
there any pics of them?
Ron
A: Yes the C&NW and CGW had 40' plug doors. Photos of those are not common.
We do not have any on file.
Joe
Q: I have some stock certificates and am wondering whether they have any value? Could you help please?
Ian
A: I assume that they are C&NW certificates.
A date is needed, but even then it depends. The general rule is that any certificate before 1944 is worthless......except as a collector's item. And those depend on the condition and whether they are clipped, etc. We are not in this business, so we can't quote actual $.
After 1944, it also depends. The stock was worth a lot at the time the C&NW went out of business in 1995 but the buyer of the C&NW, may have called in all the shares. Unless a stockbroker tells you otherwise, you can probably assume that they have no cash value as stocks, but some collector's value as paper items.
Joe
Q: What method is the correct way to get sand from a rail car into that outdoor bin. Is it a gondola where the sand is shoveled into the bin?? Or would there have been an undercar unit in the tracks and sand emptied form a car into a conveyor and dumped into the bin, or in the era we are dealing with would it have been pumped out of a car and into the bin?? I am figuring the shoveling or conveyor method..The other question is should the supply sand to the tower from the house be underground or above ground.
Ken
A: At Belle Plaine the sand came in a gon and was either hand unloaded into the bin by the section crew or if available a Burro crane clam shelled it in. However the bin had to be large enough to take a car load. Beverly Iowa bin was filled by the section crew. In all the facilities I have seen the sand to the tower was above ground from the drying house all the way to the tower. Putting it under ground would be asking for moisture and corrosion. The covered hoppers were set beside the tower and the sand blown up to the tank either using loco air or engine house air.
The boiler house would have a coal track and this track would normally be raised a short distance like 18 inches on concrete piers. The coal when dumped from one hopper door would fall into this space and would be hand shoveled into wheel barrows and wheeled into the boiler room. Belle Plaine was this way. The car was then jacked to the next bay and dumped. Coal to the sand dryer was wheel barrowed from the coal tower.
Lloyd
Q: I am an N scale modeler and wanted to ask if you could possibly direct me to any references (books, info. for sale you have, web pages)
that examine C&NW cabooses of the 1940s and 1950s or the old wooden ones the railroad used.
Jon
A: We do not have any thing in N scale. We do have a several magazine article that are available in the store.
This is an article on the wood standard way car.
http://www.cnwhs.org/shopping/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=179
Also you can try the photo search.
The C&NW called the caboose the way car.
Ron
Q: I recently purchased at an old antique shop a heavy cast iron shield looking thing with two heavy bolts for attaching it with a big black“W” on a yellow background. Can you tell me about it.
Tim
A: Without having seen it, I think it is the "W" on a whistle post, which was placed along side the track about 1/8 of a mile from a highway crossing. It notified the engineer to whistle for the crossing. These were once very common. (but no longer)
Joe
Q: What year where the H10-44's delivered to the CNW
A: The 1036 was delivered in November 1944, but it was unusual to get permission from the War Production Board.
Most of the units were delivered after the war, running through 1946 - 1950, etc.
Joe
Q: My grandfather worked for the Northwestern line his whole life. I found a pin he had. It is green, white and red and it says, "Chicago and North Western Line, October-18-31 no accident". In a red box in the center it says "BE CAREFUL".
Do you know if it has any worth or do you know anybody that would be interested in buying it. I am assuming the 31 means 1931.
Dayna
A: We are not dealers, so we do not watch values of items very closely. My guess is that it does not have a great value. And, yes, it is probably a saftey pin. The C&NW promoted safety more than other industries/railroads.
Joe
Q: am trying to put together a model train consist of the Twin Cities 400 in the late 40's-mid 50's era. Where can I find consisit information?
Chris
A: The Twin Cities 400 had a dedicated train set, with few substitute cars, though coaches tended to be shared with other trains. Sometimes the consist was reduced when traffic was slow, but it was a fixed consist, not a pool consist. That means the same cars were on the same train each day (and also matching in the reverse direction), though some coaches rotated in and out.
From front of train:
Baggage-Tavern-Lunch-Louge 7500 (plus a matching car for the other direction)
six coaches in the 3400 series
Diner 6950 "
Parlor 6508 "
Observation-Parlor 7200 "
If you want more detail, have your library get you a copy of The 400 Story by Jim Scribbins. Now out of print.
Joe
Q: I have a conductors cash box labeled "Negaunee." I am trying to determine which railroad it may have been used on. I know there is a Negaunee, MI in the UP, and I assume the cash box would have been labeled for the name of the car it was kept on. Did the MILW have a named passenger car call the "Negaunee?"
Roger
A: As a rule, the C&NW only named sleeping cars and Pullmans; the other cars had numbers.
There was a locomotive named Negaunee, which was built in 1865 and scrapped in 1889, but that is probably just a coincidence. My list of car names only goes back into the 1950's and it is not on that list.
Joe
Q: I have been researching the Galena & Southern Wisconsin railroad that was bought out by the Chicago & Northwestern in or about 1880. From 1874 to about 1880 the C&SW ran between Galena, Illinois and Platteville, Wisconsin and was built originally as a 3' narrow gauge. It was later rerailed to standard gauge during 1882, after the C&NW bought out many of the small narrow gauge railroads in the area.
I am searching for the existence & final disposition of the two engines the G&SW used; The Galena and The Platteville. Both were, according to historic records, built by the National Locomotive Works in Connellsville, PA and each had 6 drivers.
Here is a description of The Galena according to The Galena Gazette October 26th, 1874.
"The Galena specifications...cylinders 11" by 16", 44" drivers with a four wheeled truck under the front end ... boiler 36" diameter ... of wagon-top design .. 20" dome .. iron flues
1-3/4" diameter, 8' 2" length. Firebox is of cast steel, 51" long by 19 -1/2" wide, 5/16" thick. Tender rests on 2 - 4 wheel trucks, 1000 gallon capacity."
Jeff
A: From material I have, I noted that there was an earlier Galena, built in 1850 by Norris. It is not known whether it was rebuild to narrow gauge, but the narrow gauge lines often bought second-hand. It is known that the Galena & Southern W. locomotive, # 278, came from the N/G Des Moines & Minneapolis in 1880 and was probably used on other N/G lines afterwards.
Joe
Q: What was the name of the above mentioned train that ran from Minneapolis / St Paul to Omaha, Nebraska in June of 1955
Russell
A: The passenger train with those numbers was the North American. I do not have a 1955 timetable in front of me, but that information was valid for many years.
Joe
Q: I have been trying to track down photos, preferably in color, of the color scheme and an operation history of what has been described to me as ALCO FA-2 demo units on the C&NW, road numbers 4103-A and 4103-B.
Were these ALCO demo units repainted to this scheme or ???
John
A: The nickname "Green Hornets" was applied very early, and probably echoes a radio show from that time period. They were indeed green, though they were given a "cooler" yellow/green scheme very late in their service.
The C&NW was often considered "cheap", which may have been why they did indeed purchase demonstrator units. And never ordered any more.
The question that has been debated is whether the C&NW just retouched the demonstrator paint scheme or put them through the paint shop. It is clear that they used mostly what they bought and put a yellow stripe down the units and put on new lettering.
Joe
Hi Andy,
My FA2 article appeared in the June 2005 issue of RMC.
It includes a history of the units and tips on modifying them to match the CNW prototype. It also has a reference to the issue of North Western Lines where there is a full discussion of the history of the FA2.
Keith
Q: Do you know of a source for HO decals for the 1980's-90's business train, preferably with lettering in the Zito yellow? Are they are commercially available?
Phil
A:
Q: What ever happened to Chicago North Westerns famous Crandall Cabs ?
A: They were transfered to the RTA (Public agency) in the 1970's and then retired in 1983. After that they were scrapped.
Joe
Q: have been looking everywhere for some info on road numbers for cnw 2-bay
ACF centerflow hoppers that were re-stenciled from Rock Island cars rd#'s 512008 512006 etc.
Plenty of pics for 3-bay cars on the fallen flags site but can't find any for two bays
Can any one help me.
this info to be used in modeling project.
Jim
A: CNWHS does not have this information
Q: Can you direct me to a source of information on CGW cabooses? I would also be interested in a source for photos and inventories of CGW operating equipment, especially the Minnesota Division.
Roger
A: The Illinois Railway museum has a first-class example on their lot, recently restored. I understand it operated in Minnesota.
Joe--
Roger
For a start take a look at our web site.
http://www.cnwhs.org/multisearch/multisearch.pl
This is the address for "search" type in CG W caboose.
Be sure and look at the links at the bottom of the page.
Gene Green's Morning Sun book "Chicago Great Western Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment", is considered the bible of CGW pictures.
Ron
Q: I am seeking information on the former C&NW office building on Randolph St. east of the terminal, now a general office building.
A: The one you mention was called the Chicago Daily News Building at one time. I do not know the whole history. The office space was leased for the executives. Your question, however, seems to indicate that you want the Ravenswood office Building on the north side of Chicago. It was a stand-alone building, owned fully by the C&NW. I housed the lower-level functions of the railroad and was a very large structure. I think it was designed by Frost & Granger,
Joe--
Q: Has anyone complied a C&NW steam engine roster
much like the diesel roster?
If so, how can I obtain a copy?
Larry
A: There is a roster in the Steam Power C&NW book by Charles Knudsen. You would have to ask a friend or check with inter-library loan at the public library. There are rosters of specific types of engines, such as, D's or E's within the article on their classes. They would be scattered out over the years in the NWL.
Rich
The Society has a steam locomotive roster/diagram book, but it has no photos.
It is very large and covers many years. See the cnwhs.org site for ordering information if this is of interest.
Joe
Q: Perhaps you can help me in researching a train that ran to Eagle River, Wisconsin during the 40's and 50's we had a place in Eagle River and I seem to remember the train from Chicago named the Flambeau "400".
John
A: I would suggest getting The 400 story, by Jim Scribbins from the library.
It has a chapter on the Flambeau 400. Pictures in the book show a Pacific as the last
regular steam locomotive, by 1950, E6's were already on the run. The train lasted
until Amtrak in May 1971.
Ron CNWHS
I would like to add that a branch line train connected with the Flambeau at Monico Junction and then went (slowly) up to Eagle River. In the 1940's an R-1 steam locomotive took the short train up the branch. The other locomotives were too heavy.
Joe
Q: I would like to see a roster of streamlined passenger cars of the C&NW if such an item exists. I am especially interested in the numbering on coaches and baggage cars.
Larry
A: We do not have one roster that tells the whole streamlined passenger car roster. but you can get about 95% of it from two books: The 400 Story by Jim Scribbins and the Passenger Car Diagram book, from, the C&NWHS > The Scribbins book can be obtained at no cost via interlibrary loan, or for a price on Amazon.com used books.
The Diagram book is for sale on our cnwhs.com web site.
http://www.cnwhs.org/shopping/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=35
Joe
Q: 1-When was the last year the H-1 4-8-4s were in service on the west line thru Glen Ellyn ? 2- When were the first bi-level coaches introduced on the west line ?
3- As a kid, I saw many freights pass thru Glen Ellyn in the A-B-GEEP-B-A configuration. How far back was this done with any regularity ?
Philip
A: The answers I am giving are approximate, because very detailed records of movements did not survive.
1. The Class H-1's last ran in late 1955. Approximately.
2. The bilevel coaches were introduced in 1955, but there were only a few until the 1958 - 1960 period, when they became dominant.
3. The freight units with a Geep in the middle could not have happened until about 1951, but that mix was probably not seen much until about 1956. It would have been rare after 1960.
I hope this helps.
Joe
--
Q: I am an O- gauge modeler and I am building a replica of caboose #12432. I've matched the paint, and have the decals but I do not know what color the roof walk ways were.
Larry
A: Larry
Issue 4 of 2006 page 35 shows a caboose being painted and the roof and running board are red. I could not quickly find another color shot in a recent issue at Proviso showing a down on including a freshly painted caboose that also has a red roof and running board.
Lloyd
Q: I have aquired a concrete whistle post, that is a bit different than the normal. My original post has the W on top of the X, and the one in question has the X above the W. Just wondering if you could give me any info on this.
Frank
A: The W is whistle for sure. The X is likely indicating a crossing. It could also indicate a warning for a snow plow or flanger operator to raise the blade on their equipment so the crossing or bridge does not get shoved to the side. The flanger warning would have the X from one corner to the next, crossing would be a capital X in the middle of the sign.
You should know what railroad the sign came from. If you can figure that out, check a few of their older timetables. Special signs are listed towards the back. W and X are universal, pretty much. The way those symbols are displayed may vary, depending on the operational needs of the particular railroad.
Rich
Question Man - editor
Q: The Archives doesn't have information on this.
Ron CNWHS
A: I model the Burlington Northern in North Dakota in the 1970's. I am
looking for any information available regarding the NP/BN-CNW interchange
at Oakes, ND. I am interested in the types and volumes of commodities
interchanged and the frequency in which the two railroads met. I do know
from local residents that a brisk interchange business existed in the
1970's. Any information you could provide will be much appreciated.
Micheal
Q: I have a ticket from November 28, 1898 and I was wondering what the value of it might be. It is in good condition and is signed by Greene.
Patricia
A: We don't do appraisals, and the real value of something is what it brings on Ebay.
My friend says that the value of the ticket may be from $2 to $10, depending on the towns and other factors. He also said that it should be the actual ticket and not a ticket receipt.
Joe CNWHS
Q: Did C&NW always run their trains on the left-hand tracks? Was this based on British railroad operations?
Richard
A: The answer is "Yes", but it is a little more complicated.
The left-hand operation started with the Galena & Chicago Union predecessor railroad, which owned the line through Oak Park, Lombard, etc. (modern names). The G&CU decided to run left-handed because their stations were built on the north side of the tracks, and it was easier to run on the left, rather than make the passengers run in front of the train to ride into Chicago. Outbound passengers did not need the station because they were going home. This is the generally accepted theory.
When the G&CU was running, the British did not want to invest in the Wild West. The list of stockholders, which I have seen, was mostly American.
Joe--CNWHS
Q: The secondhand SD45s from my understanding were to be used primarliy on general merchandised freights while many of the SD40-2s were to be used on the Powder river coal trains.However the increasing coal tonnage proved too much of a burden on the
SD40-2s and many of the secondhand SD45s were no longer useful for
rebuilding. Did any of these units go to the Wisconsin Central such as ex-BN
number 6588?
STEPHEN
A: The secondhand market for such units is complicated, as is the renumbering. My C&NW roster does not trace the units beyond their sale to VMV, NRE, and EMD. But there are some problems with your assumptions:
* 6588 was in a wreck in 1986 and was scrapped that year.
* The units that the C&NW bought from the BN were BN-numbered in the 6200's and 6400's.
*The C&NW changed the roles of their units more than once. The SD 45's were old and not as dependable as the SD40'2's. A few of the SD'45's, for example, were cleaned up and adapted to use on grain trains in Canadian National service, but that did not last either.
Joe CNWHS
Q: I have been doing research on CNW's 1920's "arch-roof" cars commuter cars.Can you tell me the number series, quantities, & builder. I understand some were sold off to the Rock Island at some point in the 1940's.
Andre
A: Our records are not necessarily complete on the disposition of the cars, but the majority were sold for scrap to Hyman-Michaels.
Of those that were resold for use, here are some (There may be more, especially if the scrap dealers resold any.)
* Rock Island (CRI&P) 5061, 5083, 5090, 5095, 5096, 5100, 5102, 5104, 5109
*Stone Mountain (GA) Scenic Railroad: 5050, 5079, 5103, 5106, 5107
* Edwards International: 5043, 5077, 5078, 5084, 5086, 5092, 5101, 5116, 5117.
The records indicated that, ironically, some of these cars had been repained yellow and green.
Three of the lower-numbered cars were held up from scrapping for a time for the Law Dept. But they went to scrap soon thereafter.
I think the suburban coaches that you are interested in are the 5000 Series. These cars were built in 1929 and were advanced in the sense that they used mostly aluminum to reduce weight and used roller bearings. A trivia fact it that they came just as the C&NW was eliminating the yellow/green on all passenger cars. The 5000's were either Pullman Green or were repained shortly after purchase. The y/g colors disappeared for 10 years
Joe
Q: I'm modeling an O scale Rails Unlimited North Western Refrigerator line 40' reefer in the original gray sides and oxide red ends and roof paint scheme.
I need a clear photo or description of the black lettering on the right side of this car. I have the NWL winter, 1987 issue. It has pics of this car, but the lettering is not clearly legible. The pics only serve to indicate where to place the lettering. What I need is the text itself.
Tom
A: This is from Gene Green's Refrigerator car book.
small lettering under herald
EH 12 4
EW 9 10
IL 32 9 3/8
IW 8 4 3/8
IH 7 0 1/2
CU.FT. 2052
CU.FT. ICE 235
TYPE E COUPLER ????
I W WROT STEEL WHEELS STD
BUILT (DATE) RS
I picked a car in the 1500-15499
The demensions are from the April 1958 Equipment Register.
However the EH and EW are not the same as the picture of car 15100.
You should be aware that the dimensions are very different in each car number series.
Ron CNWHS
Odd Ball Decals. http://members.tripod.com/mopac1/oddballs.htm
Decal set 550 is for an early 1920's gray-side car. The 551 set is for green and yellow cars painted after 1952. The 552 set is for the last gray car lettering.
Tom
Q: Was there a regular mail and express train, no passengers, operating between Chicago and Elroy via Madison in that period. I have been adding up the size of train 515 at that time, given the regular car lines indicated in the Official Guide, and knowing that this train, by its scheduled 9:50pm departure from Chicago, was positioned to be the outlet for a lot of connecting mail and express traffic off the NYC arriving in late afternoon (especially any through mail and express cars being switched across from 16th Street to Wood Street and thence to Madison Street). There was at that time a CMO no. 513 that connected off 515 at Altoona/Eau Claire that carried the name "Fast Mail" although it was an all-stops local, which further fed the idea that there might have been a no-passengers mail train running either just ahead of or just behind 515 between Chicago and either Elroy or Altoona and carrying that name. It is evident that unless split into sections or relieved of mail and express, 515 must often have been upwards of 16 cars, probably more than an E-2 could handle, especially on the hill up to Baraboo. This is based on adding at least three head end cars each way toward Winona and Beyond, three toward Minneapolis, and probably at least two toward Duluth even though no through passenger cars were on 515 for Duluth at that time (no. 511 departed too early--6:15pm--to receive the connecting mail and express for Duluth, and the advertised later Duluth connection via 403 would not have been a suitable way to handle through mail and express cars due to the premium schedule of 403.)
Jerry
A:
Q: When did the CNW paint fuel tanks and or trucks green to match the units?
From pictures it looks like the last units might have been the SD-7,9's but then its hard to tell.
I remember seeing the SD40-2s with green tanks. I never remember seeing green trucks on either the real thing (GP30's and up) or in pictures.
I know the later units and repaints were black underbodies (fuel tanks too).
Jeff
A: A short answer is that we don't know the whole story, since we have not found a document indicating when the change over was made. A complication is the fact that we are probably talking about two shades of green (Pullman and regular). The early passenger units (and cars) had the trucks painted Pullman Green, which was so dark that they look black; in fact, some of the modeling companies just use black since nobody can tell the difference. We don't know the change over date. The 1948 painting drawings list Pullman Green.
Joe
Q: Do you have an idea when the CNW started to paint the
passenger cars yellow and green?
A: I believe the 60 foot coaches were delivered in yellow and green and then shortly change to Pullman green to match the rest of the trains at that time. In the early Bi-Level days only the old combines and a hand full of coaches were painted yellow and green to match the galley cars. You will find this in Volume III of "Chicago and North Western in color."
Lloyd
Q: Atlas has just announced a new run of their RS1"s ine one of the M&StLs paint schemes. My question is, Is it accurate? The Atlas new models page says it will be Blue, Gray, and Yellow. The road numbers are correct, but I can't find a picture in Gene Green's color book. What can you tell me? Thanks
Warren
A: Atlas did the first M&StL RS-1 after seeing the centerfold in the November 1993 TRAINS magazine. Atlas took their information directly off that page for the first one including repeating the TRAINS error of RAILROAD instead of RAILWAY across the bottom of the monogram.
The next one was the red and white version because it was easy. Some time back I was able to buy a fairly good slide of M&StL Alco RS-1 244 in original paint. This slide, along with the stencil diagram and paint information that Tom Kaufman came up with, became the basis for this latest version.
A couple of details on this locomotive that came from the slide include blue steps and blue on the box forward of the fuel tank.
This matches the slide. Atlas even redid the builder's plate on the side to show the correct construction number and date built for #546.
244 (200) was built 2-44 SN 71317
546 (213) was built 6-46 SN 75113
646 (214) was built 6-46 SN 75114
RS-1s were more numerous on the M&StL than Geeps. The M&StL had:
35 Alco RS-1s
9 GP9Ms (rebuilt from 3-unit Fs 445, 545 and 147)
14 GP9s
All the GP9Ms and GP9s were delivered in red and white.
Gene
Q: I remember the freight engines coming through South .Milwaukee, WI with dog houses on their tenders but I can't find information as to their use or need. Were they used with certain locomotives?
Larry
A: They started to be installed in 1937 after a union complaint that there was no place for the brakeman to sit on the locomotives. Almost all were installed on Class J locomotives (various versions thereof). The Class H locomotives had room in the cab for an extra seat and did not need a dog house.
But the issue was resolved after a few years, and large numbers of Class J's never saw a dog house.
Joe
Q: Could you possibly tell me what the official name of the train depot was in Milwaukee in 1958. and provide me with, if not the exact address, than a rough location?
Bill,
A: There were several depots in Milwaukee at the time. The Chicago and Northwestern Railroad, The Milwaukee Road, and the NorthShore , an electric railroad, all had depots. If you live in the Milwaukee area there would be a wealth of information in the Milwaukee public library.
The C&NW had their depot down towards the lake in the area of the art museum. The Milwaukee Road had their depot near the location of the Amtrak depot now. The NorthShore, I do not know.
Rich
It was located "...at the foot of Wisconsin Ave." in Milwaukee, and It was on the Lakefront
Joe
Q: I recall an old timer who said he used to ride the Kate Shelley out of Chicago to Geneva. My library has a copy of a children's book about this spunky little heroine and the patron wants to tie in the Geneva connection if possible.
Nancy
A: The beginning of the Kate Shelley 400 began on a negative note when the C&NW opted out of all West Coast trains in 1955.
To keep the local people happy and to ward off the regulators, the C&NW instituted the Kate Shelley 400. The term "400" was the C&NW's cachet for fast streamlined trains. However the Kate was the only 400 that ever ran on that line through Geneva.
The Kate Shelley 400 first ran from Boone, Iowa to Chicago. Boone was only a few miles east of where Kate grew up and later retired as a depot agent. (Mongoina, Iowa) That service lasted from October 1955 to August 1956.
Probably lack of customers required the C&NW to cut back the train from Cedar Rapids to Chicago from August 1956 to October 1957.
The train was cut back again from Oct. 1957 to April 1971 from Clinton, Iowa to Chicago. At that time Amtrak was instituted and the C&NW exited all intercity passenger operations.
Little noted was the fact that the C&NW dropped the Kate Shelley 400 name in 1963. After that the same equipment still ran as numbers 1 and 2. Local people still called it the Kate Shelley (as did I) , but this was incorrect.
The C&NW constantly manipulated the equipment and the schedules during this history. For example, the diner was removed, and later all food service was removed.
The train did stop in Geneva.
Joe
Q: Information wanted on McIntyre, Iowa.
In the late 1880s the right of way was originally bid for by Austin Bailey who founded the town of Bailey. He and Mr. John McIntire (who eventually founded the town of McIntyre) each vyed for the right of way of the railroad and the railroad ended up with its station in McIntyre, Iowa.
Jeanne
A: Originally McIntire was at the junction of the Winona & South Western RR, which came down from Rochester, MN (etc.) and went a few miles beyond McIntire to Osage, IA, which is a very small farm town.
The main line went up from Oelwein, Iowa to St. Paul, MN and crossed through the junction in McIntire. It was originally called the Chicago St. Paul and Kansas City RR. Bailey was on the CStP&KC, two miles north of McIntire. There was a depot there, but the junction was the reason that McIntire prospered, I assume. It was the W&SW that missed Bailey.
Both of the original lines merged into the Chicago Great Western. .....and finally into the C&NW.
Joe
Q: Heavy weight mail cars in Pullman Green?
Usually parked at the Green Bay station was a mail train with several mail cars, RPOs and either a couple combines or coach. The cars resembled the current Walthers heavy weight cars -- but I do not recall them being yellow and green. I had thought they were black -- but they more likely were a dirty Pullman green. The train was pulled by a steam engine which had 3 sets of main drivers, which I assume was a Pacific.
This mail train would pull out heading south before the 400 arrived (about 8:00 PM,
A: We do not have train consist information, which lists the cars on the train. All standard cars on the C&NW were painted Pullman Green in 1929. Then, in the mid-1950's, a few standard cars were repainted back into yellow/green. But, by that time, the passenger trains were on their way out.
Joe--
Q: Tell me about the War Emergency Hoppers the C&NW had.
Gary
A: The ex-CB&Q War Emergency Hoppers were interspersed at random in the series
X 203050 - 203087 and X 203089 - 203209.
They were purchased from the SLSF and the BN, after the merger that created the BN. There were ex NP and SLSF cars mixed in with the CB&Q cars. In general, the cars were not satisfactory for ballast service.
More specific number samples, CNW X203060 was former CB&Q 194689, X203158 was former CB&Q 188720, X203168 was former CB&Q 170558, X203207 was former CB&Q 189837.
Reference: NWL Spring 1999
Joe
Q: I was wondering if the C&NW had any company houses at coal mines, similar to what the C&O had at their mines. I was looking for a photo so I could model some on my layout.
Andre
A: We do not have any photos of housing at the Superior Coal Co. in Illinois, which was controlled by the C&NW. We do have a photo of the box-car-body houses filling a field near Benld, when that railroad town was being constructed near the coal fields. They were basically obsolete 36' box cars with windows, regular-doors and stoves added. There were probably the same sorts of housing at the coal mines initally.
The C&NW did have Standard Section Houses, which they used through out the system. There were many variations. We have a book of Section Houses that we sell on the site, though some of the drawings are a bit weak
From the maps that I have seen, it is possible that some of the miners lived in regular towns in their own houses.
Joe--
Q: What was the name of the western mainline I believe I have seen it referred to as mainline west, geneva sub, Overland Route, Omaha Line, etc.?
Tom
A: The Geneva Subdivision is the official name. That, I understand, is because the Galena & Chicago Union used the route first.
Those other nicknames are sometimes used.
The "Overland Route" would apply to the whole line to California, including the UP and SP.
Joe
Q: Did CNW run a large regular passenger train service with the EMD E7 units yellow and green with the yellow and green passenger cars (non heavy weight), similar to the california zephyr, santa fe super chief? - ricardo
A: Certainly the C&NW did run them for many years with streamlined equipment. Yellow and Green.
The trains were named the "400".
Joe
Q: What did the large x on the door of CNW box cars mean?
Ron
A: The large X on the wood box car doors were used in LCL service from various Chicago freight houses to the huge LCL facility at Proviso Yard. They were called "Dolly Cars" as the freighthouses used movable wire cages on casters loaded with the LCL packages. These were easily rolled out of the cars at Proviso for sorting into overnight box cars to various cities. The westbound trains were called the Roundup. This was of course replaced with the overnight piggy back 26 foot trailers in 1954. NWL has had a pix or two showing these cars being pulled from the Merchandise Mart.
Lloyd
Q: I want to find out if 1880s era trains hauled live cattle and hogs from S MN to slaughter in Chicago. If so, how many livestock cars, typically, would make up a train? How much time would the run take from Mankato? What types of locos were used?
On your website, I see a photo of 4-6-0 loco #511 built in 1890. That is the oldest CNW loco I have found. CNW played a formative role in the development of small towns and agriculture across S MN in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
I will greatly appreciate any assistance you might give me.
Charles
A: While we do not have train/loads information, we know how livestock was shipped. All towns along the C&NW had company stock pens next to the side tracks. There they would load. The pens had water furnished by the C&NW. The number of cars would depend on the season and the demand. 1880's is rather early for us to generalize, since our information is spotty, so I am giving you the best common practice.
The trains would stop at intervals along the line, during the journey, to "water" the stock.....this gets complicated. The goal was to have them reach the major stockyards in ideal condition.
Southern Minnesota may have shipped a lot of stock to Sioux City. But, as I say, we do not have exact records of typical shipments. We do, however, know the shipping totals for the year.
Since I am not at the Archives, I do not have my locomotive listings. But I can tell you that they often used 4-4-0's in those days, though they were not ideal for heavy loads. The 4-6-0's would have been a bit better. However, from Makato to Chicago they would have changed engines a number of times, and there is a chance that different types were used on the same stock load. It ccould take a week or more to reach the Chicago Stockyards from Mankato. Less to Sioux City.
By the 1890's the C&NW had purchased Drovers' Cabooses, which were enlarged cabooses with simple bunks, so that farmers could ride with their stock to the market and make the sale themselves.
Joe--
Q: What kind of motive power and equipment was used on the passenger train that traversed the "cowboy line" in the 1950s?
Kent
A: In 1950 there was a Pacific steam locomotive, pulling a number of head-end cars (mostly baggage); coaches (as needed), plus one 14 section sleeping car. This was train 13/14 from Omaha to Chadron.
By 1953 a steam-generator equipped diesel, a GP7, was used on most runs. Then, in 1954, an E-7 was used.
Also in 1953, a rebuilt/modernized diesel-electric motor, 9926, car was sent to the area. It took the connecting train from Chadron to Rapid City, but it may have hauled trains 13/14 once in a while.
Joe--
Q: Could you tell me when the last train went through Valentine, Nebraska. Cherry County is composing a book, "A Sandhills Century Book Three...Plus 25", and we would like to write an article on "The Death of The Railroad and The Coming of The Cowboy Trail". Any information you could give us would be appreciated.
Mary
A: The line was officially abandoned by the C&NW, Norfolk to Merriman, on 08-31-94. We do not know when the last train went over the line because Nature effectively abandoned the line much earlier when storms and washouts destroyed much of the line and the bridges. The C&NW did not think it would be cost-effective to rebuild the line (Though they once had seriously planned to put millions into the line for coal service....in the 1980's)
Joe
Q: Did C&NW ever have GP-20 locomotives in their livery? I haven't been able to find information about them?
Larry
A: No, the C&NW did not have GP20's. The closest they got was GP18's, and they are not considered second-generation, as the GP20 usually is.
Joe
Q: The website for Intermountain Railway Co. shows a planned summer 2007 release of an N-scale C&NW "Northern Series" sleeper and lightweight coach.
These look like very accurate models of passenger cars that to my knowledge have not been available as production models before. For C&NW modelers, these will be gold.
http://www.imrcmodels.com/newsncomingsoon.html
A: Those are the old Des Plaines Hobbies cars. The Chinese now assemble and paint them. They are really nice kits, but lots of work.
I have 12 still in the original packaging. Each car uses 40 inches of Micro Scale 1 inch striping. It is a slow process to build these cars yourself, but you get better quality. But RTR is the way to go if you want a full train.
Keith
Q: Can you tell me about stock loading?
A: As one who spent part of his youth helping load more than a few CNW stock cars (36 foot cars and 40 foot green & yellow cars), I do not need to use my imagination as to what was involved. There is little reason anyone would need to be in the stock car once the loading commenced.
We "bedded" hog cars with sand. Cattle loads received a liberal amount of good bright oats straw.
Even today, I can vividly recall the sights and hear the sounds associated with stock loading: The sound of hooves in the loading chute. The squeak of the cable wheels as the chute was raised to load the top deck (loaded first). The sway of the concrete filled weights used to help raise the chute along with the rusting metal containers used to hold the initial wet concrete when the weights were constructed. The feel of the long metal pipe that was shoved under the chute and used to hold the chute in the upright position.
The "extensions" on the hinged gates on each side of the chute, the extensions were pulled up tight to the car sides.
The heavy steel rods with pointed ends that were used to hold the chute's side gates in place, and how the pointed ends would dig into platform's heavy deck planking. Or, when finished loading, my cousin Harlan using his livestock cane and sticking it through the chute side gates and under the steel rods He would pull the chute side gate towards him, and then use his cane to raise the pointed rod.
This work saving stunt eliminated having someone climb over the chute sides and lift the rod. I recall the heavy hooks used to hold the chute gates away from and parallel to the tracks, thus preventing their swinging out and being struck by a car during switching maneuvers.
The feel of and the sound of each of the four door pins as each was dropped into place. The cast iron door clamps molded at right angles, and how the slot of each slid neatly
over the protruding cast iron locking post on the car side.
When the clamps were over the locking post, the pins were dropped into place, and W E Cline, the local agent, and years later Norm Pfaltzgraff, inserting a CNW metal seal through the slot at the bottom of the pin, one seal per side.
The chain at the bottom of the door that was used to hold the door somewhat close to the car side as the door was slid open (My guess is the chain was designed to prevent the relatively light and open car doors from swinging outward at the bottom and blowing off the car.)
Regarding the end doors on stock cars being used as an escape hatch, I do not recall any reason for anyone to be in the stock car during the loading process. To be inside the car
would only spook the oncoming livestock and hamper the loading.
As a very small child, I recall my uncle Dan kicking our butts off of the chute side walkway, or off of the sloping pen roof on the southside of the chute. I do not recall ever seeing an end door on any CNW stock car. They may have been on other carrier cars.
Area cattle feeders shipped in cattle in a wide variety of cars Including UP, SP, Milwaukee, Great Northern, Northern Pacific, Kansas City Southern, and yes, even a Baltimore and
Ohio stock car, but I recall no end doors. That is not to say there were none, I do not recall them on any specific railroad's cars.
They may have been on Milwaukee stock cars.
Probably my favorite memories associated with livestock loading are the many engine cab rides in 126's 2-8-2's when they stopped to pick up stock, or the cab rides in the way freights continual parade of hand-fired R1 engines as they set out empty stock cars. As they were bumped from passenger runs, the ES Pacifics were on the way freight from time to time, and kindly Scott Henry gave me a ride in the 1647 while the brakemen sorted out the stock empties.
Later the F unit cab rides followed a year or so later with the GP7 and Alco RS3 consists.
Today, the branch line is gone. The stockyards area is a neatly
manicured park. The town took over the 400 to 410 foot drilled well (6 inch casing, drilled by Hoeg & Ames, Lincoln Iowa) and the well site is the only reminder that a stockyards was a busy part of my formative years.
LWA
Q: I have an undated pix of a PM and C&NW auto box car with a string of seven new automobiles. The wooden superstructure with arch-bar trucks auto-box C&NW 118718 has an AUTOMOBILE marking over a "The North Western Lines" circle and sloped parallelogram logo and offset-double doors. I'm told they were originally single door cars. Naturally, the re-weighing date is just off the pix.
Al
A: The following answer is given with the caveat that dates are not always what they seem.
The 118718 was built in 1909 as a double-door car. (not the reverse, as you had assumed)
The series was listed in the ICC Valuation report dated June 30, 1917.
A roster that we have shows that the cars were converted to single door cars and renumbered into the 93200 series. Since the date of the roster is 1920, that might help. The notation of the conversion and the new series notations were all crossed out at a later date, probably indicating that the whole series was scrapped sometime after 1920.
The 93200's were turned into regular box cars
We have no car card, nor any modern records of that car or series.
Joe
CNWHS
Q: I have an undated pix of a PM and C&NW auto box car with a string of seven new automobiles. The wooden superstructure with arch-bar trucks auto-box C&NW 118718 has an AUTOMOBILE marking over a "The North Western Lines" circle and sloped parallelogram logo and offset-double doors. I'm told they were originally single door cars. Naturally, the re-weighing date is just off the pix.
Al
A:
Q: I have this 200 ton flat car that the CNW had only two of, and I don't know what color to paint it? This flat car has 8 axles,2 pairs of trucks. The #s of the cars are 48051 & 48053
Jim
A: There was a large article about these cars in the 2006:2 issue of our magazine, North Western Lines.
The cars were box car red.
Joe
CNWHS
Q: Could you tell me when the last train went through Valentine, Nebraska. Cherry County is composing a book, "A Sandhills Century Book Three...Plus 25", and we would like to write an article on "The Death of The Railroad and The Coming of The Cowboy Trail"
Mary
A:
Q: What I need to know is when the steam/Pullman consists began COMMUTER type service and when the double-deckers were introduced. Also when the Metra took over commuter service.
Robert
A:
Q: Information wanted on the Mayo hospital cars.
Rich
A: The C&NW had special Pullmans, Ephriam McDowell, and "Joseph Lister," that operated on its Rochester-Minnesota-and-Black-Hills Special during the Thirties and Forties. The CGW of course had its "Blue Bird" with Pullman berth sections in the last car--only two sections--for patients who needed to lie horizontal. And the CGW during the Twenties had a nurse on its Twin Cities-Kansas City "Mill Cities Limited". The nurse worked out of Rochester on the Pullman that went on the train at McIntire, Iowa.
Tom
The cars went into MW service. I have seen slides of the sleeper Ephriam-McDowell at Altoona in MW service. This slide shows three stretcher doors on one side of the car. The number is X300916.
Lloyd
There were two cars operating to/from Rochester's Mayo Clinic, Joseph Listerand the Ephraim McDowell. These cars had side doors for litter patients.
Both eventually became MOW work cars and the Joseph Lister is preserved to some extent at the National Railroad Museum at Green Bay. The MOW numbers of these cars were: Joseph Lister to X300945 and Ephraim McDowell to X300946.
Gary
Q: Did the Chicago and Northwestern and/or the Chicago, St Paul, Minneapolis, and Omaha Railroads have any history in the archives on Railroad Hospitals and or Railroad Surgeons? Jim, MD.
A: The C&NW did not have a hospital, though some railroads did. The Illinois Central had one in Chicago.
The C&NW did have a clinic at the Passenger Terminal in Chicago. (We assume that the CStPM&O had one in St. Paul, but this is a guess.) The clinic was used to give exams to new-hires and also to treat minor problems. We guess that it may have been used for other purposes, such as giving shots. It was not for the general public that we are aware of.
In later years the C&NW contracted with local (private) clinics. One of my friends went to one near Butler Yard / Milwaukee. He said that no matter what the injury was, the employee had to give a urine sample and submit to a drug test before being treated.
I already noted that company surgeons were listed in employee timetables. Some timetables specified the dividing points on the line to determine which surgeon to go to.
But we have not done a study on this, so we don't know the extent of the rules on Company Surgeons, nor when they stopped doing this.
Joe C&NWHS
The C&NW had a Chief Surgeon, who was located at Company Headquarters in Chicago. Most of the rest of the care was given by Compay Surgeons, who were local doctors,on retainer,along the various lines.
Injured employees would have to get to the local surgeons for treatment. Since many of the injuries were serious and many took place at remote locations, The employee would have a long and painful rideon the next train. Then somebody would have to get him to the doctor's.
Around 1915 the C&NW invented the "Safety First" slogan and that was because there was a Mr. Richardson, who was assigned to meet with others and form a Safety Council nationwide.
The railroads would assign the injured men/amputees to work at crossing shanties and gate towers. Often these jobs could be done with one arm. The C&NW worked very hard to reduce injuries and had some success.
In the 1980's, for example, each VP in the Chicago Office had to go out to some division point (some remote) and attend the Safety Award dinner and help give out awards. This showed that Safety was a compay-wide effort.
In the 1930's and 1940's the C&NW assigned Stewardesses to major passenger trains. They were trained as nurses. It turned out that they spent all their time with women passengers and their babies. This seemed, somehow related to the use of Stewardesses on the fledgling airlines. This is a topic tha needs research.
The C&NW also assigned nurses to the special cars that went to the Rochester Clinic. Those cars had been modified to take stretchers. (one survives at the National RR Museum in Green Bay). However, most of the prospective patients could ride in the regular cars with the regular passengers.
Joe
C&NWHS
Q: Where can I find the history on engine 1412, I believe it was a ten wheeler
Phil
A: (The dates are record dates, and may not always match other facts, but are usually correct.)
*Built Sept. 1907 by the Americal Locomotive Company (Alco), also known as Schenectady.
*Tender # 7329, probably all its life.
*1921 add air-operated fire door
*1923 add electric marker lights
*1923 add superheater
*1939 - 1941 add Storm Windows
*1942 add Power Reverse
*1948 add steam line to Power Reverse
*1956, June, Retire locomotive
CNWHS Archives
Joe
--
Q: Just from studying the history of where I live there
was a spur coming off the railroad near the station
which long ago was used for an old brickyard north of
the downtown and was used for Hines Lumber which was
originally on Touhy & Meacham. While I'm pretty sure
it was in the mid 50's they moved to Busse Hwy. I
know of a couple of photos taken in the early 60s
with the spur track still there. Would you know when
the C&NW officially removed it?
Mike
A:
It would not be easy to locate the answer to your question from the records we have. Theoretically, it is in the files, but we have no index for much of that material. Most likely photos would give an idea.
Joe --
Q: We found a piece of medal shaped like a cross, with C&NW then M13320 on it. It looks like to was a pulley of part of a wheel at one time. Any ideas as to what it is. Thanks,
Susan
A:
Q: I'm looking for information about a train wreck
that happened in Iowa sometime in the 1930's or 40's. I don?t
believe anyone got hurt. My grandfather said that all
the locals looted the fruit and potatoes that
spilled.
Do you have any information on where the wreck happened or any more details of what caused the wreck?
Matt
A:
I am afraid that we do not have any wreck information. The C&NW was sensitive about
wrecks and did not leave us any information. It is possible that it was on the (sort of) parallel Chicago Great Western line in the area, but we do not have any of their wreck information either.
The Interstate Comerce Commission would have had an investigation if the wreck was serious enough and if somebody was killed.
It was frequent that people looted wrecks, all over the US. The railroads apparently did not
try very hard to prevent this.
CNWHS Archives
I was looking for wreck information at an other Iowalocation and found it in the local news paper.
You could also try the local library.
Ron
Q: I’m looking for info on the construction date of the current swing bridge at Hudson, WI.
Jon
A: We have a back-issue Noth Western Lines featuring Hudson. According to the article, the bridge was completely rebuilt in 1912 - 1913. It was electrified in 1963.
One point to keep in mind is that the railroad often used the old term "drawbridge" for the newer swing bridges.
Archives
Q: Subject: CNW 24' piggy back Trailers
Can you tell me who manufactured this trailer? And was it a standard trailer or was it developed expressly for the CNW?
Tom
A: The 24' piggyback trailer lookslike a Strick. Their is a black oval emblem on the side. Stick was big into working with the Railroads regarding piggyback and containers. The outside external brace was kind of a trademark for them and it was for reinforcement of trailer for the rigors of piggyback/container service.
Doug
Q: I am currently trying to model the Minnesota 400 in HO scale when it was first being run(with the D class Atlantic ). The only problem is that I cannot find any pictures of the CNW hospital cars that were put on the train to go up to Rochester , Minnesota and then to the Mayo Clinic.
Andy
A: The National Railroad Museum in Green Bay has one of the two cars preserved, Joseph Lister. Unfortunately, their website does not provide much information. The car even made it onto Jeopardy:
http://www.j-archive.com/showgame.php?game_id=758
The first 400s were operated with Class E2a Pacifics and rebuilt heavyweight cars. (Joseph Lister is a heavyweight.) I don’t think Atlantics were ever used on the 400s because the trains were long and heavy. By the time the first 400 debuted in 1937, there were sufficient larger locomotives available. Are you possibly thinking about a pre-400 era train? Joseph Lister was built well before the 400s started running.
Erich C&NW Historical Society
Q: What is the proper color of red for a CGW GP30 models. So far, our search for a color formula, or even a close match for Deramus Red has been fruitless. This is surprising, as the Deramus influence and color scheme was used on three major railroads, the CGW, the MKT & the KCS.
A:
Q: When was the Kate Shelley 400 inaugurated? I know it was discontinued at the time Amtrak started.
When was the Corn King Limited discontinued? It was inaugurated in 1928. They were competitors with the Illinois Central trains Hawkeye and Land-O-Corn. Also, the Corn King Limited for a time sported a rather unique baby face Baldwin road diesel with baggage compartment.
A: * The Kate Shelley 400 started in October of 1955 (after the agreement with the Union Pacific was cancelled.) By the way, the C&NW dropped the 400 name and just called it train # 1 and # 2 after they got tired of passenger trains.
** The old Corn King Limited ceased during the beginning of WWII. I don't have the exact date, but it was in early 1942. It was certainly a wartime elimination.
There is some confusion. The "new" Corn King Limited never happened. The Sioux City connection was supposed to have the Baldwins, but, while the diesel did appear out there, the train never happened. The C&NW did not want to throw any more money into passenger service, though a couple of cars, etc. had been ordered.
Joe
Q: What is the date that CNW decided to go from the triple color scheme to just the green and yellow? I think it must have been 1947. Do you have more precise information?
A: Green and Yellow was the color scheme for many years, but your reference to 3 colors probably means the switchers and roadswitchers. (The F units for freight are another, totally different story.)
The switchers were given the new scheme in 1948. There may have been a test unit or two before then, but the paint diagram is dated 1948.
Joe
Q: I have a Stewart HO CGW 3-bay open hopper marked as CGW 69077.
Can anyone provide some information as to the fidelity of the Stewart model, i.e., number of bays, correct class and number for the configuration, etc., and perhaps even a photograph , or link to one?
Bruce
A: The number you gave CGW-69077, and the two numbers shown on the Bowser/Stewart web-site
http://www.bowser-trains.com/hocars/Stew_offset/Stew_offset_hopper.htm
CGW-69028 & CGW-69063, are correct numbers for CGW 3-bay, 70-ton, open top hopper cars of the type shown in your scan and in the photos on the Bowser/Stewart web-site.
The CGW 68000 series, 3-bay, 70-ton, open top hopper cars, were built by Pullman-Standard, Lot #5557, for the CGW in 1937.
116 cars of the 68000 series were sold in 1955 to the Darby Company and leased back as numbers 6800 to 6915 (not in order).
20 cars of the 68000 series were sold in 1960 & 1962 to Chicago Freight Car Company and leased back as numbers 6916 to 6935 & 6936 to 6937 (not in order).
The CGW 69000 series, 3-bay, 70-ton, open top hopper cars, were built by Pullman-Standard, LOT #5772, for the CGW in 1944 .
40 cars of the 6900 series were sold in 1960 & 1962 to Chicago Freight Car Company and leased back as numbers 6701 to 6740 & 6741 to 6768.
Looking thru the CGW Company CAR CARDS, and the CGW Freight Equipment diagram books dated 08-15-1956/1957 and 02-10-1964, the cars CGW-69028, 69063 & 69077, appear to have all made it to the “sell off & lease back’ activity.
At lease those cars, in their original numbers, do NOT carry a “destroyed, dismantled or scrapped” notation on the Car Cards.
CGW-69077, was sold in January-1962, leased back and renumbered to CGW-6747.
It is quite possible that during the “sell off & lease back” operations, the cars never left CGW property, but were renumbered were they stood at that point in time.
Cars in the 68000 series were 42’-2-1/2” over the strikers, 10’-5” extreme width, with 2,778-CuFt capacity, light weight 52,500-Lbs (typical), load limit 167,500-Lbs.
Cars in the 69000 series were 41’-8” over the strikers, 10’-5” extreme width, with 2,773-CuFt capacity, light weight 46,200-Lbs (typical), load limit 173,800-Lbs.
Both series of cars were “rated” at 140,000-Lbs capacity.
CNWHS Archives
Page 64 of the Morning Sun Books book titled Chicago Great Western Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment shows a photo of a car in this series.
They were built in 1944 as Pullman lot 5772. According to the book, there were 100 cars in the series, 69000-69099. In 1960 and 1962, CGW sold many cars to Chicago Freight Car Company, renumbered them, and leased them back.
Comparing the photo in the book to the following image at Walthers tells me that the car is very close. It could be slightly off dimensionally, but the number of hopper bays and ribs, rivet pattern, and ends appear to be a good match.
Erich
Q: I was looking at my issue of the "Diesel Spotters Guide Update(1979) and seen two CNW units that look like easy modelling projects.Are there any specs that can be given for Radio Control Car CNW X-262401 Road Slug BU-30/39.Any info will be greatly appreciated by me.
Alan
A: The Spring 2004 issue of North Western Lines has information on these locomotives.
CNWHS Archives
